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FERNANDO OLIVA   07/1/2003	Subject: ANTON G. RUBINSTEIN & JOACHIM RAFF Message: HELLO, I appreciate opinion of experts in classical music about possible comparation between the other great and forget composer Anton Grigorievich RUBINSTEIN and Joachim RAFF. I like very much Rubinstein´s orchestral works (Symphonies 1, 2 "Ocean", 3 & 4 "Drammatic", "Eroica", "Ivan the Terrible", "Caprice Russe", Violin Concerto in "C" major, and Piano concertos 1,2 & 5). I think that Rubinstein´s piano concerto nr. 5 is not inferior that Tchaikovsky´s p. c. 1 or Brahms´ p. c. 1. I´m very fascinated recently for two symphonies: - Raff´s nr. 4 (I have Davan-Wetton version in Hyperion) - Rubinsteins´s nr. 3 (In this case is Stankovsky´s in Marco Polo). Here you are the list of my TEN favorite composers in this last year (I like Classical Music since 14 years old, and now i´m 40) -ANTON BRUCKNER -GUSTAV MAHLER -ANTON G. RUBINSTEIN -JOACHIM RAFF -ALEXANDER K. GLAZUNOV -PIOTR I. TCHAIKOVSKY -JOHANNES BRAHMS -CARL NIELSEN -JOSEPH HAYDN -ANTON DVORAK Thak you for antiocipate, and excuse, I´m sorry, me for my bad english.
Mark   18/1/2003	RE: ANTON G. RUBINSTEIN & JOACHIM RAFF IP: Logged Message: Hmmm, I think that Raff and Rubinstein are very dissimilar composers. The similarities are clear and superficial: they both wrote in a post-Mendelssohn idiom, they both associated with Liszt in their youth but "grew out of it", they both wrote many works in most genres and, of course, they were both very popular in their day and then suffered neglect after their death. The dissimilarities are much deeper: Rubinstein was by his own admission a conservative. Raff, whilst not as revolutionary as the Liszt/Wagner "school", was still radical when compared with those Germans who were comfortable with Rubinstein's output. Rubinstein's idiom doesn't really progress throughout his career. Raff's was constantly evolving - listen to "Ode to Spring" and compare it with "Macbeth". Rubinstein was primarily a virtuoso who composed, he said, out of duty. Raff had an unavoidable compulsion to create. Rubinstein composed even his largest works almost as an improvisatory process, so that his manuscripts are flawless - having put pen to paper once, he moved on to the next idea. Thus the main strength of his small piano pieces becomes a flaw in many of his bigger works because he doesn't have the technique to maintain interest over the span of the larger canvas. Raff's technical proficiency as a composer was admitted even by his severest critics. I could go on, but in summary I believe that Raff was on an altogether higher plane than Rubinstein, his neglect much less deserved. Having said that, I do enjoy listening to many of the Russian's works: the 2nd. and 6th. Symphonies, the opera "The Demon", several of the Piano Concerti (yes, Fernando, the opening movement of the 5th. is great), the quintet for piano and winds, some of the Piano Sonatas and many of the small piano pieces. It's just that he has as many misses as hits for me. And no, I'm not going to get trapped into giving up hostages to fortune by nominating MY Top Ten composers! :-)
FERNANDO OLIVA   20/1/2003	RE: ANTON G. RUBINSTEIN & JOACHIM RAFF IP: Logged Message: Hello, Mark. Thank you very much. I appreciate your opinion. I like to read opinions of experts in Classical Music. I ´ve a million of questions about Raff, because since I discovered this composer (two years ago), I love Raff music inmediately. When I´ve free time, i´ll post a new messages in this wonderful forum with questions about our loved Herrn Joachim. Recently I discovered the "Concert Overture in F major": Superb! Best wishes from Barcelona! And sorry for my very bad english. PD.- In Barcelona We´ve an street dedicated to Anton Rubinstein, near the Tibidabo mountain, since 1907.
John Boyer   20/1/2003	RE: ANTON G. RUBINSTEIN & JOACHIM RAFF IP: Logged Message: First thing, Fernando's English is just fine, far better than my Spanish. Now I love Rubinstein too. I agree with Fernando that his music deserves to be heard. But not that much of it, because I also agree with Mark that Rubinstein just isn't on the same tier as Raff. His large scale music has a sketchy, unfinished quality that betrays Rubinstein's well-known fault of never polishing his ideas. They went straight to manuscript and then straight to the publisher. It's significant that Rubinstein's most popular large scale work, the 4th Piano Concerto (1864) went through two revisions (1869 and 1872) before reaching its final form. The moral is that had he made an effort, his lesser works could have been substantially improved. Unfortunately, for every work of Rubinstein that I admire, there are at least two that make me wince. Honest. Raff at his worst only bores me (Symphony #1, Piano Trio #1, Violin Sonata #1...he's not good at "firsts"!), but Rubinstein at his worst makes me cringe. Ironically, these "wincers" are some of the very works Fernando and Mark list as their favorites: Symphonies 1, 4, & 6; Piano Concertos 1, 2, & 5 (except the magnificent slow movement), etc. For my part, if I were to recommend Rubinstein to someone, I would suggest the following works: Symphonies: #2 (original version), #5 Concertos: Piano Concerto #4, Fantasy Op. 84, Cello Concerto #2 Sonatas: Piano Sonata #1, Viola Sonata, Violin Sonata #2, Cello Sonatas #1 Chamber: Quintet for Piano and Winds Op. 55, Piano Trios #1 & #3 But it's all a matter of taste.
FERNANDO OLIVA   21/1/2003	RE: ANTON G. RUBINSTEIN & JOACHIM RAFF IP: Logged Message: Hello John! Thank you very much for your opinion. For me is very important read about classical music and his compositors. I´m only an afficionate to classical music and romantic period, and I´m very happy to write and speak with really professional criticals and musicians. I promise study seriously english. Best wishes from Barcelona. PD- Perhaps in the future, we´ll have an street dedicated to Raff. I´ll write to Major JOan Clos about this.
Mark   21/1/2003	RE: ANTON G. RUBINSTEIN & JOACHIM RAFF IP: Logged Message: I was interested to read John's list of what he did and DIDN'T like amongst Rubinstein's output. The 4th. Piano Concerto has always left me cold - I've never been able to see why it was the most successful of the five and I've always thought the 3rd. a finer work and also the first movement of the 5th. (not the slow movement, pace John!). Generally, I suspect that our two lists (mine only of stuff which I rate, so you could include all the rest as stuff which I don't) illustrates one of his weaknesses - his music isn't sufficiently strong to have universal appeal on several levels. I, for instance, tend to latch on to melody, orchestral or instrumental colour, and harmonic progressions (though there's not much of interest there in AR), whereas John may be attracted by a different combination. Truly great music I suppose appeals universally because it presses so many different buttons. Or maybe I'm just waffling...