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Mark   21/1/2003	Subject: Which Raff works don't work? Message: In his recent post in the Anton Rubinstein and Liner Note threads here, John has volunteered a list of Raff's works which he feels are not of the highest calibre: Symphonies #1&6, Piano Trio #1, Violin Sonata #1 I'll keep my powder dry for the moment (but yes, I do have a list too) but I wonder what other people think are substandard Raff works ...
FERNANDO OLIVA   27/1/2003	RE: Which Raff works don't work? IP: Logged Message: Dear Friends, All the Raff´s orchestral works that I´ve the great luck to listen, are very good for me. My favourites: Symph. 4 & 5, but I think the others "work" very well. For example today, I prefere #7 "In den Alpen" than R. Strauss´"Alpina". I hope I can buy more Raff´s music in this present year. AT THE MOMENT, THIS IS MY (modest) STOCK OF RAFF´S MUSIC. -Sym. 1 "Vaterland", 3 "In Walde", 4, 5 "Lenora", 7 "In den Alpen" & 11 "The Winter". -Concert-Overture in F major. I bought via Internet the 2nd. but haven´t it since today. In this first three months of the present year, I hope I´ll buy the Raff´s chambers music recommended by Luis de Orueta and John Boyer. Both, thanks. Like forever, sorry for my bad english. Fernando.
John Boyer   27/1/2003	RE: Which Raff works don't work? IP: Logged Message: Well, not much response! Are my fellow Raff fans too loyal to slam the master? Well, I'll expound a bit more: We all agree that Raff at his best can stand comparison with most of the 19th Century big-hitters. No, he doesn't really match Brahms, but then no one does. His best pieces equal Dvorak on an average day, and I might add fairly consistently out match Saint-Saens. How much of Saint-Saens's large output do we listen to? Not much, which means Camille's batting average is really about the same as our guy, perhaps even less. Most of us also agree that Raff composed too much, hence his Saint-Saens level batting average. With a little more self criticism, he could have slugged 'em like Dvorak. Bad Raff is Raff on automatic pilot. Think of the 1st Symphony, which not only goes on far too long, but also suffers from dull, uninspired writing for most of its length. It's hard to believe it one a prize whose committee included Reinecke and Hiller. Luckily, his next attempt at a symphony is one of his happiest efforts. I feel the same way about the 1st Trio. It chugs along, obeying all the rules, but one gets the odd suspicion that it was composed using a computer algorithm rather than by a living person, as if you told your computer to compose 32 minutes of 19th Century chamber music. The result is indeed 32 minutes of 19th Century chamber music, but it's not very interesting. Again, his next trio sounds as if composed by a different person, and it's a real treat. I've said that bad Raff doesn't make me cringe like bad Rubinstein, but I must confess to stifling a wince during the scherzo of the 6th Symphony. Some may like it; I find it sounds trivial, almost childish. The 2nd Violin Concerto has the same problem in the 1st movement. The opening, which vaguely suggests the similarly dreadful opening of Rubinstein's 6th Symphony, sounds like something a composition student would write, imagining it to be dramatic when it instead sounds blustery and immature. The finale works much better, but as a whole, the 2nd concerto is less fun to hear than the 1st, a fact made all the more surprising in that the 1st has been so thoroughly bowdlerized. The 7th Symphony isn't bad, but I must disagree with Fernando, who calls it superior to Strauss's Alpine Symphony. Stauss's opus towers over Raff's like...well, like the Alps over a foothill. Personal preference plays a great role in which works we feel attached to. I have a friend who insists Schumann's 4th is by far his weakest symphony, but its record of performance indicates that most would rank it his most successful. Go figure. At least I admit that these are personal preferences. I know of others who insist they can prove, as if by some mathematical formula, that the pieces they like really are the best, and the ones they dislike really are the worst. But let's face it. Beethoven wrote a few groaners (will he ever live down Wellington's Victory?), and even Brahms, my beloved, sacred Brahms, wrote the Triumphlied!
Jamie   27/1/2003	RE: Which Raff works don't work? IP: Logged Message: This is clearly a case of "chacun a son gout". The 6th symphony happens to be one of favorites, certainly far more memorable than #2. l find its portrayal of the struggling artist through his death and ultimate posthumous glorification immensely satisfying. l wish it had been autobiographical for Raff. The funeral march slow movement is certainly Raff at his most inspired. The 2nd has always seemed a jolly piece, but without much substance. I totally agree with John about "An das Vaterland". l don't think Raff really hit his symphonic stride until "Im Walde". Other than a beautiful slow movement, it's Raff on auto-pilot. l shudder to think of the quality of the other symphonies that were submitted to the Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde competition along with Raff's 1st. l love all the rest of the symphonies (3-11), and would give just about anything to hear a live performance of them. l also would like to take issue with John's dismissal of the 7th ("In den Alpen"). Other than a long-winded 1st movement, l find much to enjoy in it, my favorite part being the finale with its incredible display of counterpoint and thrilling coda, crowned by a final triumphal statement of the motto theme at the very end. My only minor quibble is Raff's choice of key for his slow movements in #7-9. They're all in C major! I disagree with John's assessment of the 1st trio however. I think it's passionately lyrical, with memorable ideas in each movement. Buy the score from Volker as l did and perhaps you'll discover things you were missing. l know that l'm supposed to be discussing Raff's failures, but as long as l'm talking about the trios, l must put in a good word for my favorite among the 16 trio movements: the slow movement of the 4th trio. This is a set of variations on a hauntingly melancholy cello barcarole in f# minor. lt is simply one of the most beautiful melodies l have ever heard. Read my review of the Trio Opus 8 recording (on CPO) at amazon.com (it's linked on the off-site reviews page). Unfortunately and inexplicably, amazon removed the audio link to this movement, so you'll have to take my word for it. The first violin concerto has been so distorted by Wilhelmj's "arrangement" that l feel it's impossible to judge it fairly as one of Raff's mature works. The 2nd fares much better, with another typically eloquent slow movement (though in C major again!). The cello concertos are very nice, most assuredly better than anything before Dvorak's masterpiece. l love the piano concerto, but feel it's eclipsed by the Suite for Piano and Orchestra (opus 200). As far as choral music is concerned, l'm only familiar with De Profundis and the Weltende oratorio. l think De Profundis is a good example of well written late 19th century choral music, but it doesn't seem to have the spark of genius. Weltende is another story--l think it's a masterpiece, but the recording l have is so wretched that it's difficult to assess the finer points of the music. l've seen the complete orchestral score and would very much like to hear a recording with excellent acoustics.
John Boyer   28/1/2003	RE: Which Raff works don't work? IP: Logged Message: Well, I guess this means that there's a little bit of Raff out there for everyone. I'll cite Mark's support on the quality of the 2nd Symphony (though I have to dump him when it comes to Rubinstein's 4th Concerto). Perhaps someday I'll change my tune about Raff's 6th, but I don't hold out much hope (I think that I again have Mark on my side on this one). On the other hand, I used to dislike all but the 8th of Gade's symphonies, but now I like them all, thanks to Hogwood's fine series on Chandos. I agree that the 1st Violin Concerto can't be viewed fairly as one of his compositions, but my point was that even as "bastardized" Raff, it does a lot more for me than the 2nd (alas, Mark in decidedly not on my side here). Now as for the 1st Trio, my local library has the score and parts, so I did listen to it while following along on the printed page...alas, I still found it a disappointment. Oh well. The 1st Cello Concerto is a good piece, but is it really better than any other cello concerto before the Dvorak? Surely not better than Schumann's? Nor better than Saint-Saens's 1st? And what of Volkmann's, which even Brahms liked? Or Reinecke or Rubinstein's 2nd? Perhaps only about even with these last three? One nice thing about the Raff 1st is the opening theme: it doesn't sound like any other composer but Joachim Raff; music with a real identity. But I come not praise Raff, but to bury him. Mark, perhaps you could now release your list of riff-Raff? :)
Jamie   28/1/2003	RE: Which Raff works don't work? IP: Logged Message: John, I'm surprised that you'd rate the Schumann cello concerto over Raff's 2 opera. For me, the best thing about the Schumann is that glorious opening melody. The rest of it is anti-climactic and second-rate. The same goes for Reinecke, Rubinstein, Volkmann, and even the Saint-Saens 1st. The Saint-Saens 2nd, on the other hand, is a much better piece. What about Victor Herbert's 2 concertos? They're both neglected and more than worthy of revival, especially the 2nd, which inspired Dvorak to compose his own work.
John Boyer   29/1/2003	RE: Which Raff works don't work? IP: Logged Message: Raff's cello concertos better than Schumann's? Saint-Saens's 2nd Cello Concerto better than his 1st? Certainly not. We probably all enjoy pieces that are not and never will be part of the repertory. I consider these "guilty pleasures", but I wouldn't go so far as to say the consensus of posterity is wrong to ignore these works in favor of better ones. There are good reasons why Schumann's concerto is a staple of the repertory but Raff's are not, just as there are good reasons why Saint-Saens's 1st Concerto is widely played while the 2nd is almost completely ignored. In this I must cast my vote with the verdict of history. Much of it has to do with the underlying nobility of a work of art. It's not just the effect of a "name brand" either. Schumann's name, after all, has done little to rescue his troubled Violin Concerto. Just as Rubinstein is effectively slain by his own haste and lack of self criticism, so Raff is dogged by an over-the-top tendency toward sturm-und-drang that too often descends into vulgarity. Compared to the dignity of Schumann or Dvorak, Raff can seem garish and exaggerated. This, I think, is the aspect of himself that is his worst enemy. Raff, when he gets out of hand, can sound like fake Romantic music. By this I mean his music can take on a Hollywood quality. Imagine a movie about a fictitious 19th Century composer. If a modern film composer had to write something for the brief musical scenes of the picture, and he wanted music that, in a two minute excerpt, would immediately say to the audience, "This is grand music that storms the heavens!", then I think he might write something in the manner of our guy, Raff. But let's not drift too far from the point, which is: when does Raff miss the boat? Jaime, you've mentioned Symphonies 1 and 2. Any others? (And as for Herbert, I dislike the 1st Cello Concero, but I think the 2nd is a lot of fun...in an exaggerated, over-the-top sort of way...)
Jamie   29/1/2003	RE: Which Raff works don't work? IP: Logged Message: Just becuase a piece or composer has been anointed by posterity doesn't necessarily mean that posterity is correct. Look at Bruckner for example. He was an overrated mediocrity whose music is flatulent and repetitive (besides all of it sounding alike). He has been accepted into the pantheon of great symphonists while poor Raff's music goes unheard except for a few fanatics like us. Other than the first two symphonies, I really haven't heard any Raff that I disliked. Obviously, I'm not familiar with every note Raff put to paper, but I've found the great majority of what I've heard immensely pleasing, which is why I'm posting this note on Mark's wonderful site. What's wrong with composing "grand music that storms the heavens"? Didn't Beethoven start that trend? I'll take such music any day over that by most other 19th century composers. BTW, my favorite composer of all is Dvorak. He is the only composer in my CD collection whose recordings exceed those of Raff.
john_boyer   29/1/2003	RE: Which Raff works don't work? IP: Logged Message: Direct hit! You've got me there. I can't help but agree with you on every point. If Beethoven can attempt to storm the heavens, there's no reason why Raff cannot either. Funny thing, but when I wrote the line about Schumann's name failing to revive his Violin Concerto, I almost wrote "nor does Dvorak's name rescue his Piano Concerto." I didn't write that because I remembered that I LOVE Dvorak's Piano Concerto. It deserves to be rescued. And with apologies to Fernando, who adores his music, I agree with you, heart and soul, about Bruckner. There is nothing by Bruckner, not a note, that I would rather hear than even my least favorite piece by Raff. I stand with you in amazement that Bruckner is ranked as one of the giants while even Raff's best works are utterly ignored save by a handful of us Raff "fanatics". We've got to find a way to spread the word about Raff; he needs more fanatics!
FERNANDO OLIVA   30/1/2003	RE: Which Raff works don't work? IP: Logged Message: Dear Friends, I disagree with your opinion about Bruckner. I think the music "that storm the heavens" is Bruckner´s 8th. Symphony. Remember the grat conductors that has played Bruckner´s Symphonies: Walter, Fürtwangler, Klemperer (in the past), and play in the present day: Mehta, Baremboim. But, don´t worry. I´m not a fanatic. Also Bruckner have "works that not work", for exemple (for me) his 2nd. Fifteen years ago, I had an musical disease called "Bruckner-Mahler Sindrome", and only listened this composers. I had a bad habit, I was into fatal error. Today, I like my loved Anton, and my loved Gustav. But I like too Brahms, Schumann, Dvorak, Rubinstein, Raff... also Nielsen and Martinú, etc. Music is a great universe of sensations and feelings, and I´m sure that our loved Joachim Raff will be soon in the pantheon of the greats, between Bruckner and Mahler, or between Beethoven and Mendelssohn. Thanks for all, and sorry for my bad english, Friendly, Fernando.
Mark   10/2/2003	RE: Which Raff works don't work? IP: Logged Message: For me one of Raff's fascinations is his ability, if that's the right word, to have wheat and chaff side by side in the same work. No, of course I'm not saying that there is a prevalence of chaff - just that it's idle to suggest that his genius was at such a consistently high level that he should be up there with Wagner or Brahms (not that the latter does much for me I must say). At his best he was as inspired as any of the greats - but his best wasn't consistent. OK, enough of the editorial. Down to generalities! His least successful movements tend to be the finales. He's hardly alone in that but he often just resorts to a generalised festive formula which can pall if he's on John's "autopilot". He's at his best in his opening and slow movements. The longer he goes on the less successful he is - concision is a real virtue in Raff. On the whole his chamber music is of a consistently higher standard than his orchestral music. All four of the Piano Trios for example, the Piano Quintet, the Piano Quartet No.1, the String Quartets Nos.1&2, the Cello Sonata, the Violin Sonatas Nos.2&5, the String Sextet, the Sinfonietta (just about chamber music?) are works of high quality. There are some less satisfying works sure - I'd cite the Violin Sonata No.1 which I find too edgy and String Quartet No.7 which is just too bourgeois. Amongst the Symphonies I too find No.1 rather tedious - it is very much of its time and it isn't mature orchestral Raff - though the slow movement is nearest to his true self. No.6, sorry Jamie, I find melodically undistinguished and can well understand the disappointment of the critics who were hoping for something surpassing its predecessor "Lenore". The exception is the Funeral March slow movement, which is quite affecting. No.11 is also weak stuff compared with the other three Seasons but it was locked away in a drawer and never revised by Raff, so I don't think we are getting his final thoughts there. The third below-par Symphony is No.7 (they were written in the order 6,7,11 so he was going through a lean spell) but I heard a live performance of that a couple of years ago and it impressed me much more - though overlong still. Of the Concertos I can't judge the 1st. Violin Concerto. The 2nd. borders on the humdrum in the finale but the slow movement is as fine a piece as Raff wrote IMHO. The early "Fee d'Amour" has also not aged well - very much of the Victorian world. The 2nd. Cello Concerto is rather conventional and not a stand-out work in contrast with No.1 which I think as good as Saint-Saëns' similar piece for instance. Amongst the Suites, the Italian and Hungarian are my stand-outs. The Thuringian smacks of repetition of a successful formula and No.1 is rather a Biedermeyer concoction. From the other orchestral works I'd rate Romeo & Juliet as a disappointment (think what Raff in "Lenore" mode might have made of it) and Macbeth a fine, forward looking work - wheat and chaff again. The other two Shakespeare preludes fall in between (Othello is much better than Sturm and is helped by being shorter and less literal). The piano genre and salon pieces are rather formulaic but beautifully put together, never outstay their welcome, unfailingly a melodic delight and I'd not be without any of them. Of the big stuff the disappointment for me is always the Piano Sonata - rather austere, melodically hardly Raff at his best and carrying with it the whiff of academe. I could go on - but won't. This isn't a very coherent or logically argued list of my Raff duds but then, Jamie so rightly wrote "chacun a son gout".