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Jack Kelso   17/6/2003	Subject: Raff's Work with Liszt Message: I suppose no one will ever know for sure, but I am slowly becoming convinced that (despite what Lisztians think) Raff could very well have composed large portions of at least a few of Liszt's symphonic poems ("Tasso", "Prometheus" and "Mazeppa"). Most musicologists believe Raff "exaggerated" his contributions while in Liszt's employ as "secretary" in Weimar. There is a certain melodic freedom present in works Liszt composed while Raff was working there. In some of the later works this "ease" disappears ("Hamlet", "Heroide Funebre", "From the Cradle to the Grave" (his last)). Besides, Raff doesn't seem to me to be the kind of person to artificially bolster his accomplishments with false tales. And Liszt need help in orchestration and composition (for orchestra). Listen to the above-mentioned works and decide for yourselves. Did Liszt ever deny Raff's claims? Jack
FERNANDO OLIVA   18/6/2003	RE: Raff's Work with Liszt IP: Logged Message: Despite his very well music, Liszt was very polemic like person, and had fame like "casanova" or "play boy". He had a fame of women heartbreaker. Raff, was an honest music worker, and good family man. Today LIszt is very know and the great public not discover Raff. Like in the XIXth. Century and today, people thinks first in the polemic figure, ask for his life and enjoy with his romances, and then, listen his music. Fortunately, for us, Raff leaved alone Lisz´t circle and wrote his music with independence. Today Raff is less know tha Liszt, but his music haves great and own personality. I hope you ara understand me. Excuse me for my bad english. Kind regards, Fernando.
John Boyer   18/6/2003	RE: Raff's Work with Liszt IP: Logged Message: Did Liszt ever deny Raff's influence? Good question. I do know that Liszt's devotees try to minimize this influence, but if you look in the Grove article on Liszt (written by a Liszt man, of course), you'll see several of the tone poems annotated with "orch. Raff". Liszt was the sort of man who managed to keep himself free from the controversies of his day, so I imagine he would have neither confirmed nor denied it.
Mark Thomas   19/6/2003	RE: Raff's Work with Liszt IP: Logged Message: Of course the Liszt industry is big stuff in academe and there's no parallel Raff lobby. I recently came across a paper by a Liszt scholar - one Paul A. Bertagnolli - which is available for a small cost online and which effectively demolishes the idea that Raff had any lasting influence on the published score of Liszt's Prometheus. He compares the various autographs and shows how Liszt gradually removed Raff's contribution from the score. I had meant to add a link to it on the website and will add it next time I update - tomorrow hopefully. Raff enthusiast though I am, I must say that I am more persuaded by the pro-Liszt case. Whilst at Weimar, Raff was certainly not above boasting to all who would listen of his "influence" over Liszt and he certainly seems to have implied in private that he was responsible for the finished scoring of several of the symphonic poems and the Piano Concerto No.1. In fact, he had soon discovered that his rôle involved a fair amount of drudgery and he was disgruntled for most of his time there. He certainly did score for Liszt (witness the premiere last year of his version of Prometheus) but Liszt seems to have given him explicit instructions beforehand and then used this "hack" work only as a basis for successive revisions of his own which effectively excise anything by Raff. Bertagnolli is quite fascinating in illustrating this. Assuming that this process was mirrored in other Liszt compositions, Raff must have been irritated that all this artistic effort on his part eventually went for nought. My guess is that he over-egged his rôle in order to boost his self esteem. No, I don't think that Liszt ever denied the story and Raff himself never promoted it once he was established. Maybe this was because, during their lifetimes, Raff was embarrassed about his youthful claims and Liszt (who seems to have been a demanding but generally benign employer) understood what he had put Raff through. The claim only really arose after both their deaths when Raff's daughter and Joseph Joachim (no friend of Liszt in later years) made the allegation. The claim that Liszt learned from Raff's experience as an orchestrator is a difficult one to sustain. Raff had written only two orchestral works before he began work on Prometheus - the Opera King Alfred and the lost Festival Overture. So he was learning on the job, too. Both he and Liszt were inexperienced but he had more time and was employed by Liszt - so he got the job of getting the orchestration sketched out. The Raff version of Prometheus which was played in Germany last year certainly sounded like Raff - not mature Raff to be sure, but there were clear Raff hallmarks. Can anybody say that any of the Liszt symphonic poems or the 1st. Piano Concerto sound like Raff? I'd really like to believe the stories but so far I don't think that they stand up to scrutiny. My usual apologies for rambling on and on...
Jonathan Welsh   20/8/2003	RE: Raff's Work with Liszt IP: Logged Message: Dear All, Having been interested in both Liszt and Raff for some years, I would say as one of you stated above that Liszt did originally use Raff's orchestrations of the middle Symphonic Poems but only as a sort of guideline. He did indeed later on remove any references to Raff's orchestral "hints" but this was only due to his increasing confidence at orchestration. (As an addendum, he didn't really need to be worried - the Hungarian Attack march was written in about 1840 without any help and it seems fine to me! Also, the early concertant work "De Profundis", written when Liszt was only 23 was likewise written without any help)