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FERNANDO OLIVA   27/4/2004	Subject: THE TALE OF THE THREE LENORES Message: Dear Friends: I have seen last week in a music shop, another "Lenore", but not from Raff. These Lenore is an Antonin Reicha Oratorio. It sounds like the Burger´s Ballad was much popular and inspired some works. I read time ago the interesting Dr. Alan Kruek ´s work "The tale of the two Lenores", but it sounds like there´s a third Lenore but not in a Symphony form. Could somebody give me any opinion about the Reicha´s Oratorio? Best wishes, Fernando. Dear Peter: Thanks in advance for your expert opinions about the Saint-Saëns Piano Concertos. Perhaps we get luck and may be able to post it the new paralel Neglected Composers Forum. Do you accept also the "Furtwängler challenge"? It may be a really mortal sin. What´s about the Neu Hicksburg? Did they win the last match? Best wishes from Raffcelona, Fernando.
peter conole   27/4/2004	RE: THE TALE OF THE THREE LENORES IP: Logged Message: Dear Fernando I read your Furtwangler thread and was smitten by grief and sorrow. Father o'Grady left Neu Hicksburg a day later, after receiving a terrible letter from Bishop Kelly. He has gone to Italy as spiritual advisor to Baroness Ermeline von Trashkani's Grand Tour, just to get away from the stress. On the Lenores - I believe that at least 6 operas have been written based on the original Leonore story by Bouilly. They are by Champein, Gaveaux, Paer, Mayr and Beethoven, plus another by the modernist Liebermann. I am certain Raff's Lenore was very different - a Scottish gothic tale. The work by Reicha (fine late classical composer, I think!) is news to me. Please explain. Bouilly or the gothic tale? Re Furwangler. Once had a huge piano concerto by him that seemed to go on for 7 hours. Gave up after two movements. Well, what can I say? Have listened to the Sainet Saens piano concertos, as promised. It would be wrong to say what I think unless you have them. Have an idea. Will discuss later. However, must say that No.1 gets better with additional listening. Hunting horns and gorgeous orchestration in first movement, with lovely slow movement and the usual Saint Saens 3rd movement - teasing recapitulation, followed by the ambush of a soaring melody and a stunning finale. Like Raff, he knew how to tease and delight his audiences, even in his early 20's. Am too embarrassed to discuss the recent football battle. Neu Hicksburg badly beaten by the arrogant and aristocratic Karlsbad team. Many dead and wounded. The team coach has hired two Aragonese mercenaries for the next game. They are called 'El Brutado' and 'El Deguello'. What do the names mean?. regards Peter
FERNANDO OLIVA   28/4/2004	RE: THE TALE OF THE THREE LENORES IP: Logged Message: Dear Peter, Many thanks again! I am trying to find and listen to the Saint-Saëns Piano Concertos 1 & 3 this week. While, I am waiting for your expert opinions on the S-S 2 & 4. I have read your interesting chat with Avrohom. I admire your both high level Musical Culture. I am waiting for a new paralel or subsidiary Neglected Composers Forum. I think is a good idea. NOw, as for the Lenore, I think the Reicha´s one is based upon the Burger´s gothic ballad. I did know the Burger´s tale action was in Scotland. I read the famous Strauss "Don Juan" was inspired in a Lenau tale. The most famous Spanish "Don Juan" is the Zorrilla´s play tale "Don Juan Tenorio". About the Raff Lenore, I like a lot this Symphony, in special attention to its slow movement, a nice and impressive love night portrait full of tenderness and perhaps with a light erotic strokebrush. Forgetting the musical aspects, the Wagner´s Tristan and Isolde love story sounds like in comparison the Raff´s Wilhem and Lenore one, as a sort of ceremonious Whale matting. I am sorry to hear the Father O´Grady got Stress due my Furtwängler experience. Father Karras, resurrected after his Exorcist experiences, sets me as penance I should listen to the Rimsky-Korsakov Symphonies 1 and 2 "Antar" today. I never liked the R-Kv. Symphonies but I must try to save my musical soul. I am glad to hear about the Aragonese Mercenaries. As Catalonian, I descent from the Old Aragon Kingdom. The Brutado means many more "The Beastie" and The Deguello means "The Throat-cutter". I am waiting for your expert opinion about Raff´s Lenore. Have a nice day, best wishes from Raffcelona, Fernando (getting today the wagnerians rages).
peter conole   28/4/2004	RE: THE TALE OF THE THREE LENORES IP: Logged Message: Dear Fernando Hi. I think we will all have a lot to look forward to as things develop over the coming months. I checked out a few extra things on the 'Lenore', just to make sure I was not getting anything mixed up. It seems the poet Gottfried Burger (1747-1794) wrote the 'Lenore' dramatic ballad in 1773. It was based on a Scottish ballad called Sweet William's Ghost. Burger changed the story to make Wilhelm a soldier who had been killed in the Seven Years War, which ended only ten years before the new ballad was written. Burger really liked English poetry. He was much influenced by a ballad collector named Thomas Percy, who was admired by writers like Scott and Wordsworth. Burger translated a major Percy work (a collection of ballads)into German - also the Shakespeare Scottish play, 'Macbeth'. Makes me wonder if the original Scottish ballad was in the Percy collection. Might try and find out. Fernando, you said the Reicha oratorio was based on Burger, but there was another work. Am curious as to what it was. Raff's Lenore symphony. Still as enjoyable as ever. Played it earlier today (on holidays) just to remind me. Wonderful, bustling first movement. Fine, tender slow movement - yes, not 'whale mating' music like Tristan. You made me laugh with that one. Third movement exciting, suitably martial, but questioning. Last movement suitably dramatic, striding themes, sinister use of the woodwinds, a calming and hymn-like finale. I could have sworn that early in the last movement, for just a second or two, Raff quotes directly from Berlioz (Symphonie Fantastique). Noticed it in earlier hearings - or is it my ears playing tricks. Have listened to all of the Saint Saens piano and orchestra music over the last couple of weeks, along with a couple of new arrivals. None of the concertos are second rate, but the 4th is still my favourite. Unusual structure, with a long careful build-up, and a typically explosive and grand ending. The 3rd is a fine work too, and the 5th is very exotic, with melodies of African origin being drawn into the fray. The Saint Saens was a good penance for some of my musical sins. Rimsky Korsakov is a bit severe - you must have angered Father Karras. And the bishop. I hope the Aragonese mercenaries are very brave - the poor men were tricked. They thought they were being hired for soccer, not the local game. Much for them to learn in one week. The game will be a worry - against the rough, dangerous port city team, Picklesheim. regards Peter
FERNANDO OLIVA   30/4/2004	RE: THE TALE OF THE THREE LENORES IP: Logged Message: Dear Peter: How nice and funny is speak about Classical Music with you. I would like give you many thanks for your opinions about The Saint Saëns Piano Concertos. I am exciting for listen to the rest that I don´t know. Now as for the Lenore, I only would add that I disagree with some people who thinks the Lenore´s Marschtempo is merry-go-round music. This movement main theme is easy to retain in the memory and I am sure It was sung, whistled and arranged for military band and barrel organ on its own time. But the merry-go-round music is the fatal result of the over-playing, and, in this case, the Lenore´s marsh tempo may sound fresh and original for the audiences because the Raff works are unfortunately not often played. I would like show you an example. Listening to the Rossini´s William Tell Overture. The work is really great, and I ever like it. But because its over-playing and popularity, it got for a long time bastardized adaptations and arrangements for a TV-spots or cartoon movies entirely in merry-go-round style. ¡Alas! I also have heard a Blue Danube waltz arranged for a dog-barking chorus from a dog meal TV-spot. The shaming bastard adaptations ridiculizing the Great Music should be forbidden by law! Abusing of your kindness, I would request you Which Raff Piano Trio is your favorite? I like specially the 4th. I am listening to the V-Williams "Sea" Symphony as penance imposed me for the Father Karras. It´s a nice and easy to do penance. I hope the Neu Hicksburg guys win their week-end match. Best wishes from Raffcelona, Fernando.
peter conole   03/5/2004	RE: THE TALE OF THE THREE LENORES IP: Logged Message: Hi Fernando Did a little homework on the availability of the Saint Saens piano concertos, especially the performances I have. They are both still listed in the huge Gramphone master catalogue for 2004. There is 2-disc recording of them (EMI) featuring J-P. Collard as soloist. The Hyperion label (another two-disc issue) has Stephen Hough in the starring role. I am sure the wonderful no.2 is still the popular favourite - it is reflected in the recordings. About 45 listed. Am sure you are right about the 3rd movement of Raff's Lenore symphony. It is perhaps fortunate for that march-tune Raff largely slipped from public view before the talking cinema, cartoons, etc came along. Otherwise it would have suffered the same humiliating fate as 'William Tell' and the 'Blue Danube'. Regarding music abuse, I wish it was possible to take out a legal injunction against television stations and make them desist from using such music for commercials. I guess cartoon makers can now be forgiven, because the film industry has changed. I saw some old 'Bugs Bunny' cartoons on a friend's Foxtel set-up about a year ago. Mendelssohn's Hebrides overture and wedding march, Rossini's William Tell, one of Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies, Handel's Dead March, etc were all used. All of those pieces would probably also count as 'furtive musical pleasures'. Interesting. I fear that I am due for a very severe musical penance, because one of my personal 'listening rules' (Peter, remember 'spaced reinforcement' - do not play favoured composers and compositions too much)has been broken. Because of earlier discussions about cuts in Raff symphonies, I played the 3rd and 5th a couple of times, then lost control of myself and heard more, plus concertos. Fernando, the news re brave Neu Hicksburg is both bad and good. We were vanquished by Picklesheim - but it was defeat with honour. The sad part is that 'El Brutado' fell in the second quarter. The funeral was dignified and his cape and battle-axe have been preserved as momentos. 'El Deguello' should recover from his wounds - a promising player. Someone called 'El Beckhamo' may soon be available. Will take time-out to listen to the Raff piano trios again over the next fortnight - I have no definite favourite among them. The piano quintet was lovely. regards Peter