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Steve Benson   23/4/2004	Subject: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected Message: Everyone, Whilst I really like Raff, I am taking up Mark's suggestion that we have an off-topic thread for discussion on other 19th century, neglected composers, to fill the gap before the second forum is set up.I think what I have observed being discussed and, later, joined in discussing, has been invaluable. There seems to be nowhere else on the "net"(except for the odd few postings) where this occurs; so, the "furtive pleasures" thread in particular has been an illuminating and necessary godsend and treasure-trove. I shall kick-start it with just naming a few of my favourites, so that we can continue to learn from each other's knowledge and enthusiasms! Raff(of course!), Rubinstein, Reinecke,Moszkoski, Paderewski, D'Albert, Halvorsen, von Bronsart, Goetz, Sinding. Steve.
Steve Benson   24/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Come on, guys and girls, you have all gone quiet!Steve
Mark   24/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: OK, how about Eduard Franck? Whilst I'd be the first to admit that the symphonies, violin concerti and chamber music of this wealthy German are very much in the idiom of Mendelssohn, they are all beautifully crafted and a melodic delight. Not truly great music, perhaps, but each one is a little jewel of craftmanship. Someone else who deserves more than a nod, but for rather more substantial fare, is Friedrich Gernsheim whose four Brahmsian symphonies are powerful pieces with a strong streak of nobility running through them. Finally in my trio of suggestions, more of a one work wonder - Joseph Joachim. That one work being the magnificent Violin Concerto No.2 "In the Hungarian style", a work and man without which we would not have Brahms' own towering concerto. There are more, many more, whom I could add to the list, but just at present these three are real enthusiasms for me.
Jamie   25/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: As long as we're talking about violin concertos, how about Max Bruch's 3rd? You hardly ever hear anything other than the ubiquitous 1st. The 3rd is a towering masterpiece which until recently has been neglected. There's a new recording by the amazingly precocious 15 year old Chloë Hanslip which will knock your socks off! And as long as we're taking about Bruch, what about his symphonies (his three movement 2nd is my favorite, with a very somber brooding first movement, a beautifully lyrical slow movement, and a triumphant finale with a main theme that anticipates that of the finale of Brahms' 1st which came 6 years later) or his oratorios (Odysseus and Das Lied von der Glocke are the only ones I know but they are both magnificent)?
christopher fifield   25/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Jamie: I am conducting Bruch's 2nd symphony at 7.30pm on May 15th at St Luke's, West Norwood, London SE27 (the other works Mendelssohn Piano concerto No.1 and Dvorak's 8th symphony). Hope some of you will come, and introduce yourselves. That completes the three symphonies of Bruch which I will have conducted with my Lambeth Orchestra, as well as the three concertos. Jamie - I have the score and parts of Joachim's concerto in the Hungarian style, and plan to programme it one day. Meanwhile I shall do the Coleridge-Taylor violin concerto on 14 May 2005, with Philippe Graffin who has just recorded it. Steve: The Goetz is a good work, we did that a few years back. Have just reviewed the latest cd of the Rubinstein Ocean symphony (Len Mullenger's Classical Music on the Web), which I still find pleasant enough but lacking in substance at times. A general question: Why does the symphony go into a black hole of 25 years between Schumann's 4th and Brahms' 1st during which time they were being written but none of them ever get programmed despite their popularity at the time, such as Bruch and Rubinstein. Is it because of Liszt's tone poems and Wagner's operas?
peter conole   25/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Have read this 19th century 'forgotten masters' thread with great interest. For a relative newcomer it has been quite a treat to read informative postings by a conductor who is also the biographer of Max Bruch. The work has reached this part of the world. Can't help but feel pangs of jealousy - am pretty certain quite a few forum contributors will wend their way to the May Bruch concert. I can't. Agree with Jamie about the Bruch violin concerto No.3 - a work that deserves enormous respect. I gather from your posting, Christopher, that your orchestra has already performed the No.3. Was wondering (not that I can do anything re attendance) whether there were any plans for the Lambeth Orchestra to perform the Bruch viola and clarinet concerto and the concert for two pianos and orchestra? With a couple of other Bruch works (well... Scottish Fantasy?), it would be a concert to dream about. Or rather, fantasise about. Am ordering the Scharwenka symphony BTW and I was really sorry to read of problems with the other works by Cliffe. On the more general subject raised by Steve (our private wish lists of dozens of 19th century 'sleeping romantic masters' we want resurrected in the grand manner), for what it is worth, I will stick to just one genre for the moment, the violin concerto after about 1850. Would love Hyperion to extend its VC series with both of those by Reinecke, Goldmark's no.2, both of Gernsheim's and those of Hiller, Brull, Draeseke, and Rufer, plus the orginal version of Raff's No.1. Or any other label willing to take the plunge, for that matter. A further thought - a series with earlier concertos by once-famous-now-forgotten virtuoso violinists could be a winner for some enterprising label. Names like Molique, Bull, Ernst and Ferdinand David spring to mind. regards Peter
christopher fifield   25/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Replying to Peter's latest. I and the Lambeth Orchestra have done the 3 Bruch concertos, Serenade (in effect a 4th concerto and in itself longer than the rest), the Scottish Fantasy, and Kol Nidrei. We have also done the double concertos you mention, for viola and clarinet (London's Queen Elizabeth Hall) and, in one programme, the Double piano concerto in March 1999 preceded in the first half by its original version as Suite No.3 for organ and orchestra, the overture to Die Loreley (the opera I conducted in London in 1986), the Swedish Dances and all three symphonies, as well as Odysseus - I think I have served Max rather well over the years, but then I had written the biography. Bo Hyttner and I are always looking for c1850-1930 works to record - but only those which have never been on disc before (so previous radio transmissions don't count when it comes to calling a cd a world premiere)and preferably accompanied by information locating the score and parts. Do any of those you list, Peter, qualify? If any of you wish to contact me, privately or through this interesting forum, please feel free to do so. Sorry you can't get to south London on 15 May for Bruch Symphony No.2, Peter, but then from where you are it's hardly surprising.
Mark   25/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: I'll start the ball rolling, Christopher. One of the most popular composers for a time in the third quarter of the 19th. Century was Heinrich Karl Johann Hofmann (1842-1902). His two most popular orchestral scores were the Frithjof Symphony op.22 of 1872 and his Hungarian Suite of 1877. Parts for each are in the British Library, though I do not know if they also hold full scores. I have never been able to locate a record of any broadcast and there has certainly never been a commercial recording of either piece. I cannot vouch for the quality of these works, but their huge, if transient, popularity should merit investigation at least... Cheers...
Mark   25/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: As an addendum, I see that the publisher of both the Hofmann works was Ries & Erler, and they seem happy (for a price) to xerox copies of their out of print scores.
Jack Kelso   26/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: In reply to Christopher's "general question"--- Only one German symphony between those of Schumann and Brahms enjoyed tremendous popularity up until the end of the 19th century: Robert Volkmann's First in d-minor. Here in Germany the symphony is not totally forgotten. I have a GREAT radio performance taped off the air with Reinhart Peters conducting the South-West German Radio Symphony (an excellent ensemble, more recently combined with Freiburg), but the North German Symphony with Werner Andreas Albrecht is good enough to get to hear what a masterpiece this work is...and THIS performance is available on CD. But it's the ONLY commercially available recording that I'm aware of. If you enjoy hearing a lesser Beethoven/Schumann-type master and a strong influencer (ouch!) of Brahms, get this symphony. The Scherzo's trio and the coda of the 4th movement are in a class by themselves. (The middle of the 2nd mvt gives us also a glimpse of Bruckner---several years before he wrote his First!). Jack
John Boyer   26/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Sorry, Jack, but I've never seen much value in this symphony. Like most of Volkmann's work, it is rather faceless and undistinguished. It's another piece where the verdict of history appears to have been correct. Now the Cello Concerto is another matter...
Jack Kelso   26/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Alone---the fact that this work must have impressed Bruckner and Brahms (woodwind chords and theme near end of 2nd mvt) enough to have allowed themselves to be influenced by it is remarkable. I'll admit, however, that it does grow on one only gradually (unlike Raff and Goetz, who both had a more definitively likable lyrical style). Grove's still considers it to be "the best German symphony between Schumann and Brahms". Jack
John Boyer   26/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Brahms liked Volmann's Cello Concerto. The latter's D minor Symphony was indeed a concert standard, so the influence is probably quite genuine. But given the competition of high-quality symphonies written between 1851 and 1876 (Bruch 1 & 2; Gernsheim 1; Raff 2, 3, 4, & 5), calling Volkmann's the best German symphony written between Schumann and Brahms is going out on a limb. (Granted, Raff is Swiss, but...) But I'll give it another listen tonight. By the way, how could CPO goof so badly as to call their 2-disc release the "complete" orchestral music when it missed one of the overtures and the Konzertstuck for Piano and Orchestra?
Jack Kelso   27/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: You're right, John---I noticed that the "Konzertstueck" is missing. And I forgot---you're listening to the Volkmann First on the CPO disc...whereas I have the much more concise and dramatic SWF Baden-Baden recording, which takes the first movement much faster and brings out the fine instrumentation better. Now, if Muti would do it with the Vienna Phil....! Maybe someday..... I love the slow movement of Bruch's Second. But after the noble intro to the Finale, he grows uncomfortable, stiff and dull. It seems that Bruch could occasionally equal Schumann and Brahms in lyric intensity, but didn't quite know where to go in the allegros! Yes, the Raff Nos. 3 and 5 offer artistic competition---but then, alas, I have that problem with Raff's lack of intensity, although both first movements have their moments! Jack
peter conole   27/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Re 19th century wish list for a handful of violin concertos; Christopher, publication data for full scores of some listed (and a couple of others) as follows. Have not bothered with violin and piano scores - that would not really help, at this time: Reinecke no 2, op.141 - Breitkopf and Hartel, Leipzig ( No.1 - no indication the work was printed, yet). Leopold Damrosch, No.3 in D Minor - Bote and Bock (somewhere in Germany - full score available in US Library of Congress). Gernsheim, D major, op.42 - J.Rieter-Biedermann, Leipzig and Winterthur. Brull - J.Guttman, Vienna Rufer, D Minor, Op.33 - Peters, Leipzig Molique, No.5, op.21 - Hofmeister, Leipzig Kalliwoda, op.9 - Breitkopf and Hartel, Leipzig No luck as yet with published full scores of some others mentioned. The Bull concerti would surely be available. Norway? A choice coupling for me would be the Reinecke and Draesecke concerti. Have already asked one CD label about that. More research needed, not just on the Draesecke concerto, but on others where only a pianoforte score is available. Could go on about a piano concerto 'wish list', but there are a lot and it will take time and research. I suspect the handful mentioned in this and the earlier posting have not been performed for generations. Would be interesting to find out if any have made it to the radio. For my part, it still counts as a 'premier' CD recording even if one was heard in an obscure radio performance. I think you know what I mean - in this part of the world, there is no chance of hearing any of them unless they appear in CD form. Was amazed by details of the work you have done re performing music by Max Bruch. His opera 'Die Loreley' performed in 1986. Not to mention choral works. My only points of access for the latter have been his 'Salute to Christmas', the cantata 'Flight into Egypt' and the 'Jubilate'. Am a bit crestfallen, but very grateful and heartened by your postings. regards Peter
Jack Kelso   27/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Does anybody remember which Bruch choral work it was that Brahms perused, exclaiming at the end to the hapless Bruch, "Where did you get this beautiful note-paper?" Jack
peter conole   27/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Dear Jack Have no idea. Perhaps Christopher, or someone else, could enlighten us. I have read that there was a regrettable personal issue betwen Brahms and Bruch, and going by the occcasional grumpiness of Brahms, it may have coloured the latter's attitude towards his younger contemporary. It seems Bruch was impertinent when he visited Brahms in Baden-Baden in about 1862. While waiting for Brahms to arrive in the parlour, Bruch is supposed to have looked through an on-the- table Brahms manuscript to pass the time. Brahms caught him in the act and, while not becoming very hostile at the time, may have held a grudge thereafter. I understand he was a bit mean towards Bruch on at least one other occasion - eg, making sarcastic comments about the glorious violin concerto No.1 without giving it a fair first performance hearing. regards Peter
christopher fifield   27/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: "If I meet with Brahms in Heaven, I shall have myself transferred to Hell!" Bruch wrote to Simrock 2.10.1877 The source of the ms paper story is Edward Speyer in his autobiography 'My Life and Friends' and is about the oratorio Arminius Brahms commented unfavourably on Bruch's 2nd concerto because he could not understand how it could start with an Adagio. Peter: There are at least two cd versions of the oratorio Moses (it was translated by the American choral conductor Bingham J Vick into a fresher English version - he did a dissertation on the 5 large-scale oratorios 30 years ago or so). Other choral recordings include Das Lied von der Glocke, Odysseus, Damajanti, the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei (the 3-movt mass he wrote) and the choral ballad Schoen Ellen. I forgot about the Jubilate-Amen, which I have also done as well as the Three Hebrew Melodies for chorus. Thanks for that great list of concerti which I will study with interest, and try to get Bo to record. He is insistent on not mixing composers, and he is not too keen on mixing concertos with symphonies. He does not touch song, piano solo or chamber music.
peter conole   28/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Dear Christopher Thanks for your reply and the advice. I checked out the most recent Gramophone Catalogue. There are some fairly recent additions re Bruch choral music, so I now have more room for exploration manoeuvres! It gave me a real lift to read that you might consider some I mentioned and even make an approach to Sterling. Great feeling. In for a penny, in for a pound. Here are a couple more thoughts on lines of approach. Necessary, I guess, if the Sterling people maintain certain recording guidelines: (1) Draesecke composed concertos for both violin and cello. They would make a great coupling. (2) The Reinecke no.1 was composed in 1857. There must surely be an orchestral score somewhere. Research resources are a tad limited here. The one I listed with publication details sems to be a very superior work. Now, Reinecke's cello concerto - commented on favourable by Mark in another Joachim Raff Society site - has been recorded, but not on a major commercial label. Another fine coupling, unless the first violin concerto turned up. (3) Imagine both Goldmark's violin concertos as a coupling. The score for the unknown one must be somewhere (4) Gernsheim wrote two violin concertos. Again, a natural pairing if the other could be tracked down. Not to mention his cello concerto - Mark tells me it reached the radio. (5) Molique and Ferdinand David each composed a bundle of violin concertos. A pianoforte score of the David no.5 op.35 was published by Breitkopf and Hartel. A superior and ingenious work, it seems, and it is impossible to believe that the full scores of David's concertos do not exist. He taught Joachim and Wilhelmj. A major virtuoso composer. Wilhelmj served Mr David in the same way as he did Raff - by 'revising' the no.5 and issuing a distorted version. (6) As a kind of footnote, may I mention the names of a couple of post-Paganini Italian composers of violin concertos? Well thought of in their time. Camillo Sivori (1815-1894) composed two for the instrument. Then there is Guido Papini (1847-1912), who wrote at least one concerto each for the violin and cello. A very interesting point is that Papini spent a lot of time in Britain both as a performer and an instructor. It must surely be safe to assume the scores of his two offerings are in London or Dublin. Enough at this point. Will say nought of another hobby horse - piano concertos. regards Peter
Steve   03/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Everyone, particuarly Fernando. Listened to Rubinstein Sympphony 1 and "Ivan the Terrible". (Politely!)disagree with you, Fernando, re the latter. Found it bleak and relentless but quite effective, though OVER-repetitive at the end.The symphony sounded better on this playing-effective first movt and funeral march(though this sometimes seems a bit of a "can't think of anything else" stock-in-trade. But this is fairly good quality music. As regards the debate over cuts. I think, ideally works should be uncut. However, I agree that truncated versions, whilst by no means perfect, do at least give SOME idea, of the piece. We can pressurise the record companies, but if all that is, or was, released is adulterated, thats better than nothing. Not everyone can read a score! I can follow one and could tell if something was cut out; I can also tinker on the piano well enough to play the treble of any significant line. Again, ideally we should all be able to read scores properly and fully; but for some people thay havent got the time or have other priorities. And, remember, its the LISTENERS who buy the cds, and who the composer wrote for(as well as other composers and the interpreters of the music). Have slight, only slight problems with Saint-Saens: its lovely, VERY tuneful but seems to, usually, miss the deep passion of Raff(sometimes) and many of the Romantic pieces(except slow movt of Organ Symph). But perhaps I am missing the point. The point may be- it IS lovely and tuneful, and THATS ENOUGH! Best wishes, Steve
Paul   05/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Not sure if the following qualify cos most of their works were in the early 20th century, but anyone who has anything by these guys on tape, I'd love to hear from them... Fritz Volbach, Siegmund von Hausegger, Georg Schumann, Weingartner (as composer, NOT as conductor, Paul Graener...
Lew Lewis   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Hallo there Everyone. What a treasure trove there is of 19th 'also-rans'. May I add a few of my own to your lists of 19th century delights? Kalliwoda, Franz Lachner, Krommer, Loewe, Ries, Kiel and Mielck, among the continentals (all have had symphonies, concertos and chamber music recorded or broadcast), while I particularly relish the symphonies of two British men: George MacFarren (8 symphonies) and Cipriani Potter (maybe as many as 15). There are recordings of symphonies and overtures by each of these, as well as a string quartet by Potter ('Little Chip' to his friends!) I always regret that Arthur Sullivan did not venture more into the instrumental field: his E minor symphony and In Memoriam overture are splendid. And wouldn't it be a marvellous discovery if an original score of the 'cello concerto came to light? I bet there's one in someone's attic out there somewhere! I also hear that the score of the 'lost' E flat string quintet of Max Bruch is recently located. In 1978, after twenty years of immersion in the 18th and 19th century 'greats', I happened to hear a broadcast on the BBC of a movement of Raff's 5th symphony. I was immediately taken with the sound of it and set about investigating this composer. By chance, in Harold Moores' shop (Gt Marlborough St, London, a great Alladin's cave of second hand records), I came across a recording of the piano quintet Op.107. I bought it and was so thrilled by the music I wrote to the record producer, asking if he had any more by Raff in his repertory. His letter back was the beginning of a long and pleasant friendship. In all his professional work and correspondence the record producer used only his forename - Adriano. He was Swiss by birth and was based in Zurich, where, single handedly, I think, he ran a small recording studio from which there came a number of recordings over the years. He, too, was an enthusiast of Raff's music. As well as producing records, Adriano was a composer, pianist, conductor, mime artist and artist, while also finding time to work in the oil industry, I believe! He served several stints as visiting conductor of the Bratislava Orchestra and also appeared on some of the Marco Polo Cds. As I said, I enjoyed a long and interesting correspondence over many years with this fascinating musician. The year 1982 was a good one for Raff in British musical circles. The BBC marked the centenary of his death (the 160th anniversary of his birth, too) by broadcasting a series of performances of his music (little known at that time), including some songs, which have not been broadcast since in this country, as far as I know. I am always hoping that the chamber music will receive the attention of a recording company. It would be very nice to think that all the Quartets and Quintets for various combinations were on the way to our CD shelves. My apologies for the length of this piece - my enthusiasms rather took over!
John Boyer   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Raff needs all the enthusiasm he can get, so don't apologize. You write, "It would be very nice to think that all the Quartets and Quintets for various combinations were on the way to our CD shelves." Well, perhaps not all, but we do have the String Sextet and Piano Quintet (MD+G), a couple recordings of the Octet (Jecklin and Chandos), a complete cycle of the violin sonatas half finished (CPO), a cycle of the string quartets about to start (CPO), the First and Seventh Quartets already out (Tudor), and two complete cycles of the piano trios (CPO and Arte Nova). I still have my Schwann catalogs from the early 1980's, when at any time there were only 2 or 3 albums of Raff's music available. So things aren't that bad!
peter conole   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Hi all. Steve, I partially agree that Saint Saens does not usually reach the deep passion of Raff in his music. For me he often does though, or rather, I felt that way after listening to his piano and orchestra works over the last couple of weeks. Ok, have a penchant for the French composer. But to keep things in perspective, Saint Saens himself stated bluntly that 'for me art is form' and he valued elegance, fine melodic devlopment and harmony more than the 'grand passions'. Paul, I have not one note written by the composers you listed. Felix Weingartner wrote a number of symphonies and a violin concerto. Am curious about the latter. Lew, you mentioned a number of 19th century composers who, over the last decade or so, have at last been put on display via the CD. Friedrich Kiel included - will admit without hesitation that he wrote one of my favourite piano trios of the century, the one in G major, op 34. If I may support John's comment on Raff, there has been quite an advance in regard to the availability of Raff's music. Other Joachim Raff Society sites have got information on various recordings. The CPO plan for recording the string quartets is not something I knew about - something to look forward to. Have got to put in a plug for another neglected 19th century composer who should surely receive more attention, namely Julius Rietz. He took over from Mendelssohn as the leading 'music master' at Dusseldorf and Leipzig in turn, then moved on to head the conservatory etc. at Dresden in 1860. A clarinet concerto and oboe concertstuck have been recorded, but his major works have not received attention. Three symphonies, three other concertos, including at least one each for violin and cello. Should have raised the subject with conductor Christopher Fifield earlier. This leads me to discussion of Rietz's successor at Leipzig, Carl Reinecke. Just obtained a recent recording of his harp concerto and 3rd symphony on Signum (Sig x117-00). I recommend the concerto in particular in the strongest possible terms. Have only heard one other from the 19th century that can match it - the op 98 by Elias Parish Alvars. I suppose it would be wrong to say Parish Alvars is being disgracefully neglected, as another recording is on the way - but he was a 'virtuoso composer' and that term (in some texts on music)used to be given negative connotations. regards Peter
Jack Kelso   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: I've got a work on tape (from German radio) that is a personal favorite of mine and fits in here perfectly: Carl Neuner's Oboe Concerto (now I forgot the key!). Romantic Era wind concerti are a real rarity. He's contemporary with Weber and sounds it. It's a gem of a work, but I can't find anything else by Neuner. Anyone out there know him---or this work? Jack
peter conole   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Jack, I have an awful feeling you may be referring to a work that caused me some grief a few years back. The name Carl Neuner rings a bell. It is possible the work appeared on a label that tends to have a fairly quick 'record and delete' rate. Or so it seems to me -possibly Cappriccio or Koch Schwann. Might be worth checking Gramophone catalogues of 4/5 years ago or even earlier. Will do it myself if time permits - the second hand market has changed (improved) over the years. Agree with you about the relative lack of romantic era wind concertos, but they are around. I guess a lot depends on the initiative of outstanding modern soloists (eg,Dieter Klocker - clarinet) who hunt for forgotten concertante works to perform on their particular instruments. Guess the increasing dominance of the piano as a solo instrument in the 19th century was part of the problem. Have noticed that the vast majority of wind instrument concertos composed in that century are concentrated in the early decades. From the 1830's it seems to be mostly piano, with the violin and cello as honourable exceptions. The biggest loser seems to have been the trumpet - have only uncovered two romantic era concertos for the instrument. regards peter
John Boyer   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Peter, I've been in love with the Reinecke Harp Concerto since I first heard it 24 years ago. And I was beginning to think I was the only person who knew Kiel's wonderful Op. 34 Trio (the Tacet disc?). Do you know the Op. 65 Trios (on Koch) or the Piano Quintets (on Marco Polo)? Wonderful stuff.
Mark   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: According to Groves, Carl Borromäus Neuner (1778-1830) joined the Munich court in 1800 as ballet répétiteur and violinist with the court orchestra, retiring in 1827. He was a founder member of the city's music academy. He was, apparantly, especially significant as a ballet composer. Weber praised his "Der Dichter Gessner" of 1809 for its melodic richness. Weber urged Neuner to write operas, which is piquant when one knows that in 1812 Neuner wrote the incidental music to a play entitled..... "Der Freischütz"! Grove speaks highly of its Overture. He wrote no operas, in fact, but penned plenty of ballets, some sacred choral music, songs and instrumental music as well as the Oboe Concertino (of 1819) and - you'll be pining for this one - a Symphony in E flat of 1826. Cheers,
peter conole   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: John, half your luck, knowing that amazing Harp Concerto for 24 years! I heard it first 'gratis' a Vox compilation of recordings of sundry harp works first recorded in the 60's and 70's. Soloists was Catherine Michel. I won't say more about the work, lest I start raving. The Signum recording is my 'blessing' for the quarter. Trouble is, the harp work makes me fret all the more about Reinecke's other unrecorded concertos. Yes, the Kiel trio is on the Tacet disc (year 2000 - a re-issue, it seems)and I fell over myself obtaining the others you mention. Finding the older Marco Polo recording of the quintets was blind luck. This might sound a bit over-the-top, but the Kiel op 34 is close to being my favourite in that genre. Approaches perfection? There is another by Danish composer Peter Lange-Muller that does a lot for me, but that is another story. regards Peter
Lew Lewis   07/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Hello again, Everyone. This "Off topic" has, quite understandably, generated lots of input. A very good thing indeed, as it brings to our notice the names of 19th century composers, never of the first rank, but who still made some impression on their own musical worlds. I've always been keen to search out the contemporaries of the acknowledged "greats" to see what else was going on. Sometimes very surprising things emerge - who would believe nowadays that Eberl's E flat symphony, which received its first performance at the same concert as the Eroica's premiere, was judged to be the better of the two? It's a good piece, but the Eroica really does win by a mile to our ears. Anyway, the other thing I wanted to mention was that I think Peter's favourite piano trio (Kiel's Op.34) comes close to the top of my list, too. (Kiel doesn't get a mention in my Grove - an outrageous omission). I think that the piano trio configuration is one of the most difficult to get right for a composer. It's the piano that usually gets to be the dominant party, and the two strings bring up the rear. For me, there are few post-Beethoven composers who have shown themselves to have an instinct for chamber composition in general and piano trios in particular. I'd list, among my favourites, Raff, Kiel, Loewe, F. David, Bargiel, Farrenc and Hurlstone. If I had to choose one, it would be Felicien David. And which pieces? His trios in C minor and D minor: superb handling and understanding of the medium and full of memorable tunes. Best wishes to everyone. Lew Lewis
John Boyer   07/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Kiel's omission from Grove's is just one of the many quixotic decisions made by its editors. This is especially egregious considering the entire pages devoted to some very obscure English composers. We really could develop a whole thread on why Grove's bites, but it really has little to do with Raff or forgotten composers. But here's a weird fact: in up to the 9th Edition of Corbett's encyclopaedia of music, there was an entry for German composer Bruno Heydrich. Bruno's son, Reinhard, after studying the violin, went on to head the SD (making him second only to Himmler in the SS), was the prime mover behind the Wannsee Conference (where the Holocaust was mapped out), and ultimately became Reichsprotektor of Bohemia and Moravia (better known by his other title, the Butcher of Prague) before his assassination in 1942. Now how's that for an obscure composer fact?
christopher fifield   07/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: I seem to have triggered a fascinating deluge of ideas from you all, and I am most impressed by the results. I would urge, as a conductor, that in order to get these works into the public domain, i.e. either performance or recording, I need to know sources of scores and parts. A truism maybe, but otherwise this all becomes dangerously close to the musical equivalent of armchair generals. I see Lew has brought up the name of Felicien David, whose Le Desert I love. A choral work of outstanding beauty and fertile imagination, years ahead of itself and which takes us into the field of choral rarities. As I write I am listening to the Berlin St Hedwig's Cathedral recording with the Berlin Radio S.O. Wonderful writing for male chorus and solo tenor. I ought to put the record straight on the matter of the 'recently discovered' Eb String Quintet. The facts concerning the other quintet and the octet are described in biography of the composer, that the BBC music library had handwritten parts (in his daughter Gertrude's hand)left there in 1937 after performance by the Schwiller quartet. Somehow the Eb parts were separated and bought sometime in the last 15 years at a 2nd hand book or music shop by someone who then wrote to me as Bruch's biographer. He sent me a few photocopied pages to verify their provenance, which I did. Despite his stated intention to have the work printed nothing has happened in the intervening years, despite several efforts on my part to urge him to do so. Boosey & Hawkes have now taken over Richard Schauer and with it all their substantial list of Bruch's works. I have revealed his name to their publications manager; he too has tried but to date no movement. Personally I think it scandalous - this is a work denied to the world by inexplicable behaviour. Now to the matter of your support, at least those in the UK or not too far afield. On May 15th I am doing Bruch's 2nd symphony at St Luke's Church, Knights Hill, West Norwood, London SE27 at 7.30pm. I nweed an audience to justify doing this rarity, so come if you can. More significant is the planned all-Scharwenka evening on December 18th (plenty of notice therefore) at the same venue, when I shall do the Overture (1869), 2nd piano concerto (Seta Tanyel) and the Symphony Op.60. The orchestra are concerned about my plan because of the financial implications if we get 3 men and a dog in the audience. If we do, it makes future plans that much harder, and I am sorely tempted by many of the works you have all been disussing. If any of you wish to send me cassette or cd dubbings of the works you have all been discussing, to tempt me into performing them, then please feel free to do so. Clearly one would then have to research sources for scores and parts. Rather than give out my address, please contact me by email privately to ask for it. I shall continue to watch this space, meanwhile if any of you can make May 15th, do please come and make yourself known to me after the performance.
Lew Lewis   07/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Hello everyone again! In asking for recordings of rarities, Christopher Fifield has hinted at a thought which has occasionally passed through my mind: a Forum listing of such recordings we have that fit into our 19th century musical interests. I'm sure such a list would run into many hundreds of pieces and would take quite some time and effort to assemble, but we'd be able to see what long-forgotten pieces people have. Christopher's mention of F. David's "Le Desert" reminds me that there are several symphonies of his waiting to be unearthed. Has there been a recording of Le Desert? A good web site for surveying much of what's available is www.musicweb.uk.net/record.htm. I've just remembered that I have a recording of Raff's "Die Welt", which I have to admit I've never listened to all through! Something for the weekend at home in Oxford, I think. Lew Lewis
Steve Benson   07/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Lew, A very good idea re your list!!Not sure re protocol of this on such a Forum, which is why I haven't suggested it before! But if you want to email me to discuss creating individual lists, please feel free! stev_arts@yahoo.co.uk. Cheers, steve Benson.P.S. I like your comments on the use of this Forum to discuss and pass on onfo on other neglected composers besides Raff. I think this is important in a specific way(individual composers and genres and works on a specifically named thread), and in a general way on a thread such as this! I have made this point on the thread on "off topic" general postings.
Mark   07/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Lew: Yes, there has been a recording of Le Désert - it is (or was) on the Capriccio label (10 379) in a coupling with some of Szymanowski's orchestral songs. The work itself is a delight as Christopher has written - wonderfully shimmering textures. Most evocative. Christopher: You may reassure your orchestra that not only will I be at your Scharwenka concert in December, but I will bring two friends, one of whom owns a cocker spaniel! Seriously, I'll do my best amongst my circle in the UK to drum up support. Sorry I can't be at next weekend's concert but I will be in Switzerland, listening to Raff! Cheers,
peter conole   07/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Hi To all A little restraint needed from this corner of the universe. Otherwise it will turn into simian whimperings re desperate desires to hear on CD. Felicien David, 'Le Desert'. There is another from that strange corner of French orientalism, though it is not as much fun. That work is Ernest Reyer's 'Le Selam'. Reyer's opera 'Salammbo' -please leave that one to me when a $10 million dollar production grant comes through, along with certain other exotic 19th century musical stage works. Christopher, could I add another violin concerto to my wish list? It is the Julius Rietz G Major, op.30. Score published by Peters, Leipzig in the late 1850s. Please note a pair of much desired items from an earlier posting - a coupling of the Draesecke violin and cello concertos. Surely someone in Germany can supply details of publication. There are a lot more, I fear. Will scramble around over the next couple of months for details if the effort will be of any value to you. I would like to list some piano scores of various violin concertos list, but the need the for more exact details has to be respected. Please note that that the Bote and Bock publication of the Damrosch No.3 violin concerto seems to have been the entire orchestral score. My reference to the to the score in the US Library of Congress was simply an 'alternative source'. Please pass my gratitude on to the Sterling people for the Aulin violin concertos 1 and 2 recording (CDS-1050-2). Nobel prize for the label, surely? regards Peter
Steve Benson   23/4/2004	Subject: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected Message: Everyone, Whilst I really like Raff, I am taking up Mark's suggestion that we have an off-topic thread for discussion on other 19th century, neglected composers, to fill the gap before the second forum is set up.I think what I have observed being discussed and, later, joined in discussing, has been invaluable. There seems to be nowhere else on the "net"(except for the odd few postings) where this occurs; so, the "furtive pleasures" thread in particular has been an illuminating and necessary godsend and treasure-trove. I shall kick-start it with just naming a few of my favourites, so that we can continue to learn from each other's knowledge and enthusiasms! Raff(of course!), Rubinstein, Reinecke,Moszkoski, Paderewski, D'Albert, Halvorsen, von Bronsart, Goetz, Sinding. Steve.
Steve Benson   24/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Come on, guys and girls, you have all gone quiet!Steve
Mark   24/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: OK, how about Eduard Franck? Whilst I'd be the first to admit that the symphonies, violin concerti and chamber music of this wealthy German are very much in the idiom of Mendelssohn, they are all beautifully crafted and a melodic delight. Not truly great music, perhaps, but each one is a little jewel of craftmanship. Someone else who deserves more than a nod, but for rather more substantial fare, is Friedrich Gernsheim whose four Brahmsian symphonies are powerful pieces with a strong streak of nobility running through them. Finally in my trio of suggestions, more of a one work wonder - Joseph Joachim. That one work being the magnificent Violin Concerto No.2 "In the Hungarian style", a work and man without which we would not have Brahms' own towering concerto. There are more, many more, whom I could add to the list, but just at present these three are real enthusiasms for me.
Jamie   25/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: As long as we're talking about violin concertos, how about Max Bruch's 3rd? You hardly ever hear anything other than the ubiquitous 1st. The 3rd is a towering masterpiece which until recently has been neglected. There's a new recording by the amazingly precocious 15 year old Chloë Hanslip which will knock your socks off! And as long as we're taking about Bruch, what about his symphonies (his three movement 2nd is my favorite, with a very somber brooding first movement, a beautifully lyrical slow movement, and a triumphant finale with a main theme that anticipates that of the finale of Brahms' 1st which came 6 years later) or his oratorios (Odysseus and Das Lied von der Glocke are the only ones I know but they are both magnificent)?
christopher fifield   25/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Jamie: I am conducting Bruch's 2nd symphony at 7.30pm on May 15th at St Luke's, West Norwood, London SE27 (the other works Mendelssohn Piano concerto No.1 and Dvorak's 8th symphony). Hope some of you will come, and introduce yourselves. That completes the three symphonies of Bruch which I will have conducted with my Lambeth Orchestra, as well as the three concertos. Jamie - I have the score and parts of Joachim's concerto in the Hungarian style, and plan to programme it one day. Meanwhile I shall do the Coleridge-Taylor violin concerto on 14 May 2005, with Philippe Graffin who has just recorded it. Steve: The Goetz is a good work, we did that a few years back. Have just reviewed the latest cd of the Rubinstein Ocean symphony (Len Mullenger's Classical Music on the Web), which I still find pleasant enough but lacking in substance at times. A general question: Why does the symphony go into a black hole of 25 years between Schumann's 4th and Brahms' 1st during which time they were being written but none of them ever get programmed despite their popularity at the time, such as Bruch and Rubinstein. Is it because of Liszt's tone poems and Wagner's operas?
peter conole   25/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Have read this 19th century 'forgotten masters' thread with great interest. For a relative newcomer it has been quite a treat to read informative postings by a conductor who is also the biographer of Max Bruch. The work has reached this part of the world. Can't help but feel pangs of jealousy - am pretty certain quite a few forum contributors will wend their way to the May Bruch concert. I can't. Agree with Jamie about the Bruch violin concerto No.3 - a work that deserves enormous respect. I gather from your posting, Christopher, that your orchestra has already performed the No.3. Was wondering (not that I can do anything re attendance) whether there were any plans for the Lambeth Orchestra to perform the Bruch viola and clarinet concerto and the concert for two pianos and orchestra? With a couple of other Bruch works (well... Scottish Fantasy?), it would be a concert to dream about. Or rather, fantasise about. Am ordering the Scharwenka symphony BTW and I was really sorry to read of problems with the other works by Cliffe. On the more general subject raised by Steve (our private wish lists of dozens of 19th century 'sleeping romantic masters' we want resurrected in the grand manner), for what it is worth, I will stick to just one genre for the moment, the violin concerto after about 1850. Would love Hyperion to extend its VC series with both of those by Reinecke, Goldmark's no.2, both of Gernsheim's and those of Hiller, Brull, Draeseke, and Rufer, plus the orginal version of Raff's No.1. Or any other label willing to take the plunge, for that matter. A further thought - a series with earlier concertos by once-famous-now-forgotten virtuoso violinists could be a winner for some enterprising label. Names like Molique, Bull, Ernst and Ferdinand David spring to mind. regards Peter
christopher fifield   25/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Replying to Peter's latest. I and the Lambeth Orchestra have done the 3 Bruch concertos, Serenade (in effect a 4th concerto and in itself longer than the rest), the Scottish Fantasy, and Kol Nidrei. We have also done the double concertos you mention, for viola and clarinet (London's Queen Elizabeth Hall) and, in one programme, the Double piano concerto in March 1999 preceded in the first half by its original version as Suite No.3 for organ and orchestra, the overture to Die Loreley (the opera I conducted in London in 1986), the Swedish Dances and all three symphonies, as well as Odysseus - I think I have served Max rather well over the years, but then I had written the biography. Bo Hyttner and I are always looking for c1850-1930 works to record - but only those which have never been on disc before (so previous radio transmissions don't count when it comes to calling a cd a world premiere)and preferably accompanied by information locating the score and parts. Do any of those you list, Peter, qualify? If any of you wish to contact me, privately or through this interesting forum, please feel free to do so. Sorry you can't get to south London on 15 May for Bruch Symphony No.2, Peter, but then from where you are it's hardly surprising.
Mark   25/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: I'll start the ball rolling, Christopher. One of the most popular composers for a time in the third quarter of the 19th. Century was Heinrich Karl Johann Hofmann (1842-1902). His two most popular orchestral scores were the Frithjof Symphony op.22 of 1872 and his Hungarian Suite of 1877. Parts for each are in the British Library, though I do not know if they also hold full scores. I have never been able to locate a record of any broadcast and there has certainly never been a commercial recording of either piece. I cannot vouch for the quality of these works, but their huge, if transient, popularity should merit investigation at least... Cheers...
Mark   25/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: As an addendum, I see that the publisher of both the Hofmann works was Ries & Erler, and they seem happy (for a price) to xerox copies of their out of print scores.
Jack Kelso   26/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: In reply to Christopher's "general question"--- Only one German symphony between those of Schumann and Brahms enjoyed tremendous popularity up until the end of the 19th century: Robert Volkmann's First in d-minor. Here in Germany the symphony is not totally forgotten. I have a GREAT radio performance taped off the air with Reinhart Peters conducting the South-West German Radio Symphony (an excellent ensemble, more recently combined with Freiburg), but the North German Symphony with Werner Andreas Albrecht is good enough to get to hear what a masterpiece this work is...and THIS performance is available on CD. But it's the ONLY commercially available recording that I'm aware of. If you enjoy hearing a lesser Beethoven/Schumann-type master and a strong influencer (ouch!) of Brahms, get this symphony. The Scherzo's trio and the coda of the 4th movement are in a class by themselves. (The middle of the 2nd mvt gives us also a glimpse of Bruckner---several years before he wrote his First!). Jack
John Boyer   26/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Sorry, Jack, but I've never seen much value in this symphony. Like most of Volkmann's work, it is rather faceless and undistinguished. It's another piece where the verdict of history appears to have been correct. Now the Cello Concerto is another matter...
Jack Kelso   26/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Alone---the fact that this work must have impressed Bruckner and Brahms (woodwind chords and theme near end of 2nd mvt) enough to have allowed themselves to be influenced by it is remarkable. I'll admit, however, that it does grow on one only gradually (unlike Raff and Goetz, who both had a more definitively likable lyrical style). Grove's still considers it to be "the best German symphony between Schumann and Brahms". Jack
John Boyer   26/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Brahms liked Volmann's Cello Concerto. The latter's D minor Symphony was indeed a concert standard, so the influence is probably quite genuine. But given the competition of high-quality symphonies written between 1851 and 1876 (Bruch 1 & 2; Gernsheim 1; Raff 2, 3, 4, & 5), calling Volkmann's the best German symphony written between Schumann and Brahms is going out on a limb. (Granted, Raff is Swiss, but...) But I'll give it another listen tonight. By the way, how could CPO goof so badly as to call their 2-disc release the "complete" orchestral music when it missed one of the overtures and the Konzertstuck for Piano and Orchestra?
Jack Kelso   27/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: You're right, John---I noticed that the "Konzertstueck" is missing. And I forgot---you're listening to the Volkmann First on the CPO disc...whereas I have the much more concise and dramatic SWF Baden-Baden recording, which takes the first movement much faster and brings out the fine instrumentation better. Now, if Muti would do it with the Vienna Phil....! Maybe someday..... I love the slow movement of Bruch's Second. But after the noble intro to the Finale, he grows uncomfortable, stiff and dull. It seems that Bruch could occasionally equal Schumann and Brahms in lyric intensity, but didn't quite know where to go in the allegros! Yes, the Raff Nos. 3 and 5 offer artistic competition---but then, alas, I have that problem with Raff's lack of intensity, although both first movements have their moments! Jack
peter conole   27/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Re 19th century wish list for a handful of violin concertos; Christopher, publication data for full scores of some listed (and a couple of others) as follows. Have not bothered with violin and piano scores - that would not really help, at this time: Reinecke no 2, op.141 - Breitkopf and Hartel, Leipzig ( No.1 - no indication the work was printed, yet). Leopold Damrosch, No.3 in D Minor - Bote and Bock (somewhere in Germany - full score available in US Library of Congress). Gernsheim, D major, op.42 - J.Rieter-Biedermann, Leipzig and Winterthur. Brull - J.Guttman, Vienna Rufer, D Minor, Op.33 - Peters, Leipzig Molique, No.5, op.21 - Hofmeister, Leipzig Kalliwoda, op.9 - Breitkopf and Hartel, Leipzig No luck as yet with published full scores of some others mentioned. The Bull concerti would surely be available. Norway? A choice coupling for me would be the Reinecke and Draesecke concerti. Have already asked one CD label about that. More research needed, not just on the Draesecke concerto, but on others where only a pianoforte score is available. Could go on about a piano concerto 'wish list', but there are a lot and it will take time and research. I suspect the handful mentioned in this and the earlier posting have not been performed for generations. Would be interesting to find out if any have made it to the radio. For my part, it still counts as a 'premier' CD recording even if one was heard in an obscure radio performance. I think you know what I mean - in this part of the world, there is no chance of hearing any of them unless they appear in CD form. Was amazed by details of the work you have done re performing music by Max Bruch. His opera 'Die Loreley' performed in 1986. Not to mention choral works. My only points of access for the latter have been his 'Salute to Christmas', the cantata 'Flight into Egypt' and the 'Jubilate'. Am a bit crestfallen, but very grateful and heartened by your postings. regards Peter
Jack Kelso   27/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Does anybody remember which Bruch choral work it was that Brahms perused, exclaiming at the end to the hapless Bruch, "Where did you get this beautiful note-paper?" Jack
peter conole   27/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Dear Jack Have no idea. Perhaps Christopher, or someone else, could enlighten us. I have read that there was a regrettable personal issue betwen Brahms and Bruch, and going by the occcasional grumpiness of Brahms, it may have coloured the latter's attitude towards his younger contemporary. It seems Bruch was impertinent when he visited Brahms in Baden-Baden in about 1862. While waiting for Brahms to arrive in the parlour, Bruch is supposed to have looked through an on-the- table Brahms manuscript to pass the time. Brahms caught him in the act and, while not becoming very hostile at the time, may have held a grudge thereafter. I understand he was a bit mean towards Bruch on at least one other occasion - eg, making sarcastic comments about the glorious violin concerto No.1 without giving it a fair first performance hearing. regards Peter
christopher fifield   27/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: "If I meet with Brahms in Heaven, I shall have myself transferred to Hell!" Bruch wrote to Simrock 2.10.1877 The source of the ms paper story is Edward Speyer in his autobiography 'My Life and Friends' and is about the oratorio Arminius Brahms commented unfavourably on Bruch's 2nd concerto because he could not understand how it could start with an Adagio. Peter: There are at least two cd versions of the oratorio Moses (it was translated by the American choral conductor Bingham J Vick into a fresher English version - he did a dissertation on the 5 large-scale oratorios 30 years ago or so). Other choral recordings include Das Lied von der Glocke, Odysseus, Damajanti, the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei (the 3-movt mass he wrote) and the choral ballad Schoen Ellen. I forgot about the Jubilate-Amen, which I have also done as well as the Three Hebrew Melodies for chorus. Thanks for that great list of concerti which I will study with interest, and try to get Bo to record. He is insistent on not mixing composers, and he is not too keen on mixing concertos with symphonies. He does not touch song, piano solo or chamber music.
peter conole   28/4/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Dear Christopher Thanks for your reply and the advice. I checked out the most recent Gramophone Catalogue. There are some fairly recent additions re Bruch choral music, so I now have more room for exploration manoeuvres! It gave me a real lift to read that you might consider some I mentioned and even make an approach to Sterling. Great feeling. In for a penny, in for a pound. Here are a couple more thoughts on lines of approach. Necessary, I guess, if the Sterling people maintain certain recording guidelines: (1) Draesecke composed concertos for both violin and cello. They would make a great coupling. (2) The Reinecke no.1 was composed in 1857. There must surely be an orchestral score somewhere. Research resources are a tad limited here. The one I listed with publication details sems to be a very superior work. Now, Reinecke's cello concerto - commented on favourable by Mark in another Joachim Raff Society site - has been recorded, but not on a major commercial label. Another fine coupling, unless the first violin concerto turned up. (3) Imagine both Goldmark's violin concertos as a coupling. The score for the unknown one must be somewhere (4) Gernsheim wrote two violin concertos. Again, a natural pairing if the other could be tracked down. Not to mention his cello concerto - Mark tells me it reached the radio. (5) Molique and Ferdinand David each composed a bundle of violin concertos. A pianoforte score of the David no.5 op.35 was published by Breitkopf and Hartel. A superior and ingenious work, it seems, and it is impossible to believe that the full scores of David's concertos do not exist. He taught Joachim and Wilhelmj. A major virtuoso composer. Wilhelmj served Mr David in the same way as he did Raff - by 'revising' the no.5 and issuing a distorted version. (6) As a kind of footnote, may I mention the names of a couple of post-Paganini Italian composers of violin concertos? Well thought of in their time. Camillo Sivori (1815-1894) composed two for the instrument. Then there is Guido Papini (1847-1912), who wrote at least one concerto each for the violin and cello. A very interesting point is that Papini spent a lot of time in Britain both as a performer and an instructor. It must surely be safe to assume the scores of his two offerings are in London or Dublin. Enough at this point. Will say nought of another hobby horse - piano concertos. regards Peter
Steve   03/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Everyone, particuarly Fernando. Listened to Rubinstein Sympphony 1 and "Ivan the Terrible". (Politely!)disagree with you, Fernando, re the latter. Found it bleak and relentless but quite effective, though OVER-repetitive at the end.The symphony sounded better on this playing-effective first movt and funeral march(though this sometimes seems a bit of a "can't think of anything else" stock-in-trade. But this is fairly good quality music. As regards the debate over cuts. I think, ideally works should be uncut. However, I agree that truncated versions, whilst by no means perfect, do at least give SOME idea, of the piece. We can pressurise the record companies, but if all that is, or was, released is adulterated, thats better than nothing. Not everyone can read a score! I can follow one and could tell if something was cut out; I can also tinker on the piano well enough to play the treble of any significant line. Again, ideally we should all be able to read scores properly and fully; but for some people thay havent got the time or have other priorities. And, remember, its the LISTENERS who buy the cds, and who the composer wrote for(as well as other composers and the interpreters of the music). Have slight, only slight problems with Saint-Saens: its lovely, VERY tuneful but seems to, usually, miss the deep passion of Raff(sometimes) and many of the Romantic pieces(except slow movt of Organ Symph). But perhaps I am missing the point. The point may be- it IS lovely and tuneful, and THATS ENOUGH! Best wishes, Steve
Paul   05/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Not sure if the following qualify cos most of their works were in the early 20th century, but anyone who has anything by these guys on tape, I'd love to hear from them... Fritz Volbach, Siegmund von Hausegger, Georg Schumann, Weingartner (as composer, NOT as conductor, Paul Graener...
Lew Lewis   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Hallo there Everyone. What a treasure trove there is of 19th 'also-rans'. May I add a few of my own to your lists of 19th century delights? Kalliwoda, Franz Lachner, Krommer, Loewe, Ries, Kiel and Mielck, among the continentals (all have had symphonies, concertos and chamber music recorded or broadcast), while I particularly relish the symphonies of two British men: George MacFarren (8 symphonies) and Cipriani Potter (maybe as many as 15). There are recordings of symphonies and overtures by each of these, as well as a string quartet by Potter ('Little Chip' to his friends!) I always regret that Arthur Sullivan did not venture more into the instrumental field: his E minor symphony and In Memoriam overture are splendid. And wouldn't it be a marvellous discovery if an original score of the 'cello concerto came to light? I bet there's one in someone's attic out there somewhere! I also hear that the score of the 'lost' E flat string quintet of Max Bruch is recently located. In 1978, after twenty years of immersion in the 18th and 19th century 'greats', I happened to hear a broadcast on the BBC of a movement of Raff's 5th symphony. I was immediately taken with the sound of it and set about investigating this composer. By chance, in Harold Moores' shop (Gt Marlborough St, London, a great Alladin's cave of second hand records), I came across a recording of the piano quintet Op.107. I bought it and was so thrilled by the music I wrote to the record producer, asking if he had any more by Raff in his repertory. His letter back was the beginning of a long and pleasant friendship. In all his professional work and correspondence the record producer used only his forename - Adriano. He was Swiss by birth and was based in Zurich, where, single handedly, I think, he ran a small recording studio from which there came a number of recordings over the years. He, too, was an enthusiast of Raff's music. As well as producing records, Adriano was a composer, pianist, conductor, mime artist and artist, while also finding time to work in the oil industry, I believe! He served several stints as visiting conductor of the Bratislava Orchestra and also appeared on some of the Marco Polo Cds. As I said, I enjoyed a long and interesting correspondence over many years with this fascinating musician. The year 1982 was a good one for Raff in British musical circles. The BBC marked the centenary of his death (the 160th anniversary of his birth, too) by broadcasting a series of performances of his music (little known at that time), including some songs, which have not been broadcast since in this country, as far as I know. I am always hoping that the chamber music will receive the attention of a recording company. It would be very nice to think that all the Quartets and Quintets for various combinations were on the way to our CD shelves. My apologies for the length of this piece - my enthusiasms rather took over!
John Boyer   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Raff needs all the enthusiasm he can get, so don't apologize. You write, "It would be very nice to think that all the Quartets and Quintets for various combinations were on the way to our CD shelves." Well, perhaps not all, but we do have the String Sextet and Piano Quintet (MD+G), a couple recordings of the Octet (Jecklin and Chandos), a complete cycle of the violin sonatas half finished (CPO), a cycle of the string quartets about to start (CPO), the First and Seventh Quartets already out (Tudor), and two complete cycles of the piano trios (CPO and Arte Nova). I still have my Schwann catalogs from the early 1980's, when at any time there were only 2 or 3 albums of Raff's music available. So things aren't that bad!
peter conole   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Hi all. Steve, I partially agree that Saint Saens does not usually reach the deep passion of Raff in his music. For me he often does though, or rather, I felt that way after listening to his piano and orchestra works over the last couple of weeks. Ok, have a penchant for the French composer. But to keep things in perspective, Saint Saens himself stated bluntly that 'for me art is form' and he valued elegance, fine melodic devlopment and harmony more than the 'grand passions'. Paul, I have not one note written by the composers you listed. Felix Weingartner wrote a number of symphonies and a violin concerto. Am curious about the latter. Lew, you mentioned a number of 19th century composers who, over the last decade or so, have at last been put on display via the CD. Friedrich Kiel included - will admit without hesitation that he wrote one of my favourite piano trios of the century, the one in G major, op 34. If I may support John's comment on Raff, there has been quite an advance in regard to the availability of Raff's music. Other Joachim Raff Society sites have got information on various recordings. The CPO plan for recording the string quartets is not something I knew about - something to look forward to. Have got to put in a plug for another neglected 19th century composer who should surely receive more attention, namely Julius Rietz. He took over from Mendelssohn as the leading 'music master' at Dusseldorf and Leipzig in turn, then moved on to head the conservatory etc. at Dresden in 1860. A clarinet concerto and oboe concertstuck have been recorded, but his major works have not received attention. Three symphonies, three other concertos, including at least one each for violin and cello. Should have raised the subject with conductor Christopher Fifield earlier. This leads me to discussion of Rietz's successor at Leipzig, Carl Reinecke. Just obtained a recent recording of his harp concerto and 3rd symphony on Signum (Sig x117-00). I recommend the concerto in particular in the strongest possible terms. Have only heard one other from the 19th century that can match it - the op 98 by Elias Parish Alvars. I suppose it would be wrong to say Parish Alvars is being disgracefully neglected, as another recording is on the way - but he was a 'virtuoso composer' and that term (in some texts on music)used to be given negative connotations. regards Peter
Jack Kelso   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: I've got a work on tape (from German radio) that is a personal favorite of mine and fits in here perfectly: Carl Neuner's Oboe Concerto (now I forgot the key!). Romantic Era wind concerti are a real rarity. He's contemporary with Weber and sounds it. It's a gem of a work, but I can't find anything else by Neuner. Anyone out there know him---or this work? Jack
peter conole   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Jack, I have an awful feeling you may be referring to a work that caused me some grief a few years back. The name Carl Neuner rings a bell. It is possible the work appeared on a label that tends to have a fairly quick 'record and delete' rate. Or so it seems to me -possibly Cappriccio or Koch Schwann. Might be worth checking Gramophone catalogues of 4/5 years ago or even earlier. Will do it myself if time permits - the second hand market has changed (improved) over the years. Agree with you about the relative lack of romantic era wind concertos, but they are around. I guess a lot depends on the initiative of outstanding modern soloists (eg,Dieter Klocker - clarinet) who hunt for forgotten concertante works to perform on their particular instruments. Guess the increasing dominance of the piano as a solo instrument in the 19th century was part of the problem. Have noticed that the vast majority of wind instrument concertos composed in that century are concentrated in the early decades. From the 1830's it seems to be mostly piano, with the violin and cello as honourable exceptions. The biggest loser seems to have been the trumpet - have only uncovered two romantic era concertos for the instrument. regards peter
John Boyer   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Peter, I've been in love with the Reinecke Harp Concerto since I first heard it 24 years ago. And I was beginning to think I was the only person who knew Kiel's wonderful Op. 34 Trio (the Tacet disc?). Do you know the Op. 65 Trios (on Koch) or the Piano Quintets (on Marco Polo)? Wonderful stuff.
Mark   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: According to Groves, Carl Borromäus Neuner (1778-1830) joined the Munich court in 1800 as ballet répétiteur and violinist with the court orchestra, retiring in 1827. He was a founder member of the city's music academy. He was, apparantly, especially significant as a ballet composer. Weber praised his "Der Dichter Gessner" of 1809 for its melodic richness. Weber urged Neuner to write operas, which is piquant when one knows that in 1812 Neuner wrote the incidental music to a play entitled..... "Der Freischütz"! Grove speaks highly of its Overture. He wrote no operas, in fact, but penned plenty of ballets, some sacred choral music, songs and instrumental music as well as the Oboe Concertino (of 1819) and - you'll be pining for this one - a Symphony in E flat of 1826. Cheers,
peter conole   06/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: John, half your luck, knowing that amazing Harp Concerto for 24 years! I heard it first 'gratis' a Vox compilation of recordings of sundry harp works first recorded in the 60's and 70's. Soloists was Catherine Michel. I won't say more about the work, lest I start raving. The Signum recording is my 'blessing' for the quarter. Trouble is, the harp work makes me fret all the more about Reinecke's other unrecorded concertos. Yes, the Kiel trio is on the Tacet disc (year 2000 - a re-issue, it seems)and I fell over myself obtaining the others you mention. Finding the older Marco Polo recording of the quintets was blind luck. This might sound a bit over-the-top, but the Kiel op 34 is close to being my favourite in that genre. Approaches perfection? There is another by Danish composer Peter Lange-Muller that does a lot for me, but that is another story. regards Peter
Lew Lewis   07/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Hello again, Everyone. This "Off topic" has, quite understandably, generated lots of input. A very good thing indeed, as it brings to our notice the names of 19th century composers, never of the first rank, but who still made some impression on their own musical worlds. I've always been keen to search out the contemporaries of the acknowledged "greats" to see what else was going on. Sometimes very surprising things emerge - who would believe nowadays that Eberl's E flat symphony, which received its first performance at the same concert as the Eroica's premiere, was judged to be the better of the two? It's a good piece, but the Eroica really does win by a mile to our ears. Anyway, the other thing I wanted to mention was that I think Peter's favourite piano trio (Kiel's Op.34) comes close to the top of my list, too. (Kiel doesn't get a mention in my Grove - an outrageous omission). I think that the piano trio configuration is one of the most difficult to get right for a composer. It's the piano that usually gets to be the dominant party, and the two strings bring up the rear. For me, there are few post-Beethoven composers who have shown themselves to have an instinct for chamber composition in general and piano trios in particular. I'd list, among my favourites, Raff, Kiel, Loewe, F. David, Bargiel, Farrenc and Hurlstone. If I had to choose one, it would be Felicien David. And which pieces? His trios in C minor and D minor: superb handling and understanding of the medium and full of memorable tunes. Best wishes to everyone. Lew Lewis
John Boyer   07/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Kiel's omission from Grove's is just one of the many quixotic decisions made by its editors. This is especially egregious considering the entire pages devoted to some very obscure English composers. We really could develop a whole thread on why Grove's bites, but it really has little to do with Raff or forgotten composers. But here's a weird fact: in up to the 9th Edition of Corbett's encyclopaedia of music, there was an entry for German composer Bruno Heydrich. Bruno's son, Reinhard, after studying the violin, went on to head the SD (making him second only to Himmler in the SS), was the prime mover behind the Wannsee Conference (where the Holocaust was mapped out), and ultimately became Reichsprotektor of Bohemia and Moravia (better known by his other title, the Butcher of Prague) before his assassination in 1942. Now how's that for an obscure composer fact?
christopher fifield   07/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: I seem to have triggered a fascinating deluge of ideas from you all, and I am most impressed by the results. I would urge, as a conductor, that in order to get these works into the public domain, i.e. either performance or recording, I need to know sources of scores and parts. A truism maybe, but otherwise this all becomes dangerously close to the musical equivalent of armchair generals. I see Lew has brought up the name of Felicien David, whose Le Desert I love. A choral work of outstanding beauty and fertile imagination, years ahead of itself and which takes us into the field of choral rarities. As I write I am listening to the Berlin St Hedwig's Cathedral recording with the Berlin Radio S.O. Wonderful writing for male chorus and solo tenor. I ought to put the record straight on the matter of the 'recently discovered' Eb String Quintet. The facts concerning the other quintet and the octet are described in biography of the composer, that the BBC music library had handwritten parts (in his daughter Gertrude's hand)left there in 1937 after performance by the Schwiller quartet. Somehow the Eb parts were separated and bought sometime in the last 15 years at a 2nd hand book or music shop by someone who then wrote to me as Bruch's biographer. He sent me a few photocopied pages to verify their provenance, which I did. Despite his stated intention to have the work printed nothing has happened in the intervening years, despite several efforts on my part to urge him to do so. Boosey & Hawkes have now taken over Richard Schauer and with it all their substantial list of Bruch's works. I have revealed his name to their publications manager; he too has tried but to date no movement. Personally I think it scandalous - this is a work denied to the world by inexplicable behaviour. Now to the matter of your support, at least those in the UK or not too far afield. On May 15th I am doing Bruch's 2nd symphony at St Luke's Church, Knights Hill, West Norwood, London SE27 at 7.30pm. I nweed an audience to justify doing this rarity, so come if you can. More significant is the planned all-Scharwenka evening on December 18th (plenty of notice therefore) at the same venue, when I shall do the Overture (1869), 2nd piano concerto (Seta Tanyel) and the Symphony Op.60. The orchestra are concerned about my plan because of the financial implications if we get 3 men and a dog in the audience. If we do, it makes future plans that much harder, and I am sorely tempted by many of the works you have all been disussing. If any of you wish to send me cassette or cd dubbings of the works you have all been discussing, to tempt me into performing them, then please feel free to do so. Clearly one would then have to research sources for scores and parts. Rather than give out my address, please contact me by email privately to ask for it. I shall continue to watch this space, meanwhile if any of you can make May 15th, do please come and make yourself known to me after the performance.
Lew Lewis   07/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Hello everyone again! In asking for recordings of rarities, Christopher Fifield has hinted at a thought which has occasionally passed through my mind: a Forum listing of such recordings we have that fit into our 19th century musical interests. I'm sure such a list would run into many hundreds of pieces and would take quite some time and effort to assemble, but we'd be able to see what long-forgotten pieces people have. Christopher's mention of F. David's "Le Desert" reminds me that there are several symphonies of his waiting to be unearthed. Has there been a recording of Le Desert? A good web site for surveying much of what's available is www.musicweb.uk.net/record.htm. I've just remembered that I have a recording of Raff's "Die Welt", which I have to admit I've never listened to all through! Something for the weekend at home in Oxford, I think. Lew Lewis
Steve Benson   07/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Lew, A very good idea re your list!!Not sure re protocol of this on such a Forum, which is why I haven't suggested it before! But if you want to email me to discuss creating individual lists, please feel free! stev_arts@yahoo.co.uk. Cheers, steve Benson.P.S. I like your comments on the use of this Forum to discuss and pass on onfo on other neglected composers besides Raff. I think this is important in a specific way(individual composers and genres and works on a specifically named thread), and in a general way on a thread such as this! I have made this point on the thread on "off topic" general postings.
Mark   07/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Lew: Yes, there has been a recording of Le Désert - it is (or was) on the Capriccio label (10 379) in a coupling with some of Szymanowski's orchestral songs. The work itself is a delight as Christopher has written - wonderfully shimmering textures. Most evocative. Christopher: You may reassure your orchestra that not only will I be at your Scharwenka concert in December, but I will bring two friends, one of whom owns a cocker spaniel! Seriously, I'll do my best amongst my circle in the UK to drum up support. Sorry I can't be at next weekend's concert but I will be in Switzerland, listening to Raff! Cheers,
peter conole   07/5/2004	RE: Off topic:other 19th century composers we feel are neglected IP: Logged Message: Hi To all A little restraint needed from this corner of the universe. Otherwise it will turn into simian whimperings re desperate desires to hear on CD. Felicien David, 'Le Desert'. There is another from that strange corner of French orientalism, though it is not as much fun. That work is Ernest Reyer's 'Le Selam'. Reyer's opera 'Salammbo' -please leave that one to me when a $10 million dollar production grant comes through, along with certain other exotic 19th century musical stage works. Christopher, could I add another violin concerto to my wish list? It is the Julius Rietz G Major, op.30. Score published by Peters, Leipzig in the late 1850s. Please note a pair of much desired items from an earlier posting - a coupling of the Draesecke violin and cello concertos. Surely someone in Germany can supply details of publication. There are a lot more, I fear. Will scramble around over the next couple of months for details if the effort will be of any value to you. I would like to list some piano scores of various violin concertos list, but the need the for more exact details has to be respected. Please note that that the Bote and Bock publication of the Damrosch No.3 violin concerto seems to have been the entire orchestral score. My reference to the to the score in the US Library of Congress was simply an 'alternative source'. Please pass my gratitude on to the Sterling people for the Aulin violin concertos 1 and 2 recording (CDS-1050-2). Nobel prize for the label, surely? regards Peter