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| ack Kelso 10/12/2003 |
 Subject: Hans Huber and Joachim RaffMessage: I recently purchased the eight symphonies of Hans Huber from jpc, a real bargain---5 CD's for 39 Euros. One critic wrote, "If you like Schumann's 4th, Brahms' 3rd and Mahler's 1st, then you should enjoy Huber's symphonies." That's impressive company for the unknown Huber! I'm surprised that, being Swiss, Huber doesn't sound a bit like Raff. In fact, he really doesn't sound like anyone...hmm...five seconds of Bruckner here, a touch of Volkmann elsewhere, hints of Richard Strauss to come, etc. What surprises me even more is that Raff's name is not mentioned even once in the liner notes of any of the five CD's! Huber's First Symphony ("Tell-Symphonie") was composed about the same time as some of Raff's symphonies (1875), so it was also pre-Brahms' First. Huber is quite good, not as inspired as Schumann, nor as tuneful as Raff, not as classical as Brahms, nor as spiritual as Bruckner---but he has his own "sound". It's going to take several hearings of each symphony, but these are fine works. By the way, Huber's Seventh Symphony is called "Die Schweizerische" (the Swiss), and has movements titled similarly to Raff's "In den Alpen". Also, Huber sounds more Swiss (whatever that means), for Raff counted himself among the German symphonists. Huber's work was much later, but I cannot detect any influence from the 30-year-older Raff. Check out Huber! Definitely a MUST for collectors of little-known Romantic period symphonies. Jack Kelso |
| John Boyer 10/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: Golly, that is a bargain. The same set costs US$65.00 here in the States. You forgot to mention: the set is available from the Sterling label. Anyway, thanks for the tip! |
| FERNANDO OLIVA 10/12/2003 |
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| Jack Kelso 11/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: Yes, Fernando---Gade's symphonies are infused with Mendelssohnian harmonies, the so- called "Leipzig School". But the Dane's orchestration is more agressive and his rhythm more compelling than Mendelssohn, whose great technical fault was rhythm. The Gade 1st & 8th are very fine, also the 7th. I have all of them now, except the 4th. He's a bit dry at times, but always tasteful. The Second Movement (Scherzo) of the First Symphony could have come right out of Mendelssohn's "Midsummer Night's Dream" music! I also purchased from jpc the 2nd and 3rd symphonies of Johan Halvorsen, whom I like nearly as well as Svendsen (his 2nd is a masterpiece!). If you like Nordic symphonies, look into those of Christian Sinding, too. He's a lot like R. Strauss. And Franz Schmidt? I have his 3rd and 4th....they are dense, difficult works, but worth the time and effort. Quite original. My recordings I grabbed from German radio. Good listening! Jack |
| Mark Thomas 11/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: Unlike Huber, Raff didn't regard himself as a Swiss composer. As a child he was taught to think of himself as an ex-patriot from Württemberg and he held a Württemberg passport. In fact, his mother was Swiss and so he was, by birth at least, half-Swiss. He certainly had a fondness for the country of his birth, but he was in no way a Swiss patriot and his music has no identifiable Swiss elements except in those few works where he introduced it as "local colour". Huber himself has proved a disappointment to me. I thought that the first of the Sterling releases - the Böcklin Symphony and a couple of overtures, showed a composer of real individuality and vision, but the rest of the series has confounded that first impression. Most of them just don't stick in the mind - they're worthy but dull. The Symphony No.5 "The Fiddler of Gmünd" must take a prize for being amongst the most boring symphonies written. The best of the rest, judged on originality and memorability are probably the pair mentioned by Jack earlier - the two avowedly Swiss ones - Nos.1 and 7. Franz Schmidt I have a soft spot for - I don't know No.4 but Nos.1-3 show a real musical progression and increasing darkness of utterance. No.1 is quite a jolly conventional late 19th. century work and, with its Marco Polo coupling of the lovely pieces from his opera Notre Dame, a real favourite of mine. Despite owning all the symphonies for 17 years (gosh!) I've never really got past Gade's 1st. - it is so fresh and promising that the rest of his symphonies (enjoyable in their own right though they are) always seem to fall short. As for Svendsen, Halvorsen and Sinding - the first borders on Dvorak-level genius in my book. What a tragedy that his wife burned the manuscript of the 3rd. Symphony in a fit of jealousy! I don't really have any strong feelings about the symphonies of the other two, although there's a sharp decline in inspiration between Sinding's 2nd. and 3rd. and his 4th. might even cause me to reconsider my nomination of Huber's 5th! I'm obviously in a tetchy mood today... |
| John Boyer 11/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: Such diversity of opinion. Let me defend Gade by saying he's as fine a symphonist as our guy. That is, of 8 symphonies, only 2 duds (3 & 6 by my ears). Our guy has 11 symphonies and 3 duds (never mind which...it would start a whole new thread). Amazingly, I even heard Christopher Hogwood conduct Gade's 4th in Boston last winter! As for Schmidt...ZZZZzzzzzzz. Fernando, you may have my recording of the 4th. Just send me the word. But I'm keeping my disc of the Piano Concerto (written for one-armed Paul Wittgenstein) - it's a gem. |
| FERNANDO OLIVA 11/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: To John: Thanks a lot! I have great interest to know Schmidt works. To JaCK & Mark: Thanks for the intensive information. I promise to you I will try to find Halvorsen and Svedsen music. And a question: Do you like Berwald Symphonies? I like specially his 3rd. and 4th. KInd regards from Barcelona, Fernando |
| Jamie 11/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: In my opinion, Berwald like Bruckner is just another case of the emperor's new clothes. Both are mediocre composers writing long-winded unmemorable works. I fail to understand their (or at least Bruckner's) popularity. Berwald even rates a chapter in the old Penguin guide to symphonies where Raff of course is never mentioned. By the way, there are no Raff listings at all in the 2004 Penguin Guide to CD's. He was listed in the older editions but inexplicably deleted in the new one. |
| Mark 11/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: We're getting good value from this thread! Fernando mentioned Berwald - I agree with you, Jamie, but with one exception. His Symphony No.3 "Singulière" is indeed a singular work - fascinating construction, truly memorable both in its melodic material and in the orchestration. Way ahaed of its time and perrenially satisfying. Unfortunately it is also singular in the other sense - amongst his output it's a one-off. The rest of his music is dull as ditchwater, sub-Spohr. Overall, hardly in the Rubinstein class, never mind Raff. I suspect that he gets a high rating in the UK at least because the current elder statesmen amongst musicologists and recording critics have a strong Scandinavian bent and there wasn't really a symphonist of stature to crow about before Sibelius and Stenhammer - hence the praising of Berwald. I never quite have the courage to diss Bruckner. He seems such a universally acknowledged great that I just assume that it's me that doesn't get it. I do enjoy the odd five minutes of many of his symphonies and have no problem with them all sounding the same - many composers have instantly recognisable sound worlds. No, I just can't get into his disdjointed way of writing them - the sudden stops and starts, the jarring lurches of tempo. I always assume that I just don't have the intellectual fire power to cope with them, not to mention those vast stretches of musical architecture over which I need to maintain an attentive ear. |
| Jack Kelso 12/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: Wow....! Now I don't feel so bad about finding Sibelius dull (except for the first two sym- phonies). Bruckner (along with Schubert) is the only composer who can get away with all that phrase- repetition....but his magic works for ME! Opinions, opinions.... Here's a quote written in a book by Herbert Weinstock, eminent music critic back some 40-50 years ago: "The greatest symphonist of the nineteenth century (after Beethoven, of course) was born in Votkinsk, Russia in 1840." Yep, not Schumann...not Brahms...not Bruckner nor Mahler. After reading THAT one, nobody should feel ashamed about holding a "defensible" opinion. But back to Raff---after all, it IS HIS forum. So far, I must agree that at least some of the Huber music DOES sound a bit dull compared with Raff at his best. My girlfriend adores "Im Walde", and made the shrewd comment that the first movement has one of the best development sections she's ever heard! Well, I nearly gargoyled on that one....until I thought about it. She's right. And then we got to that WONDERFUL coda (4th mvt), with that slow, noble theme in the bassoon.... like the dawn of a new, peaceful world. Before I begin the ramble: the Huber, Halvorsen and Lachner symphonies will take some hearing before I can decide (for myself) on their quality. But Raff's 3rd, 5th, 8th, 9th and 10th symphonies have already arrived in my musical world of solid good friends. Jack |
| Mark 12/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: Jack, your last paragraph shows you to be a man of discernment and taste - just add the 2nd. and 4th. to the list and you're a fully paid up member of the club! :-) As for Tchaikovsky being "the greatest symphonist of the nineteenth century"... Actually I was going to write something pithy and incisive, but I'll have to leave that pleasure to John or Jamie. Words, for once, have failed me. |
| FERNANDO OLIVA 12/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: I agree entirely with Jack´s girlfriend about "In Walde". I love ver much this Symphony, and his first movement is absolutely superb. And the final movement anticipates in five years the famous Brahms 3rd. final movement ending. I only want, add to list of great Raff Symphonies the 4th. It´s full of otimism and "joie de vivre". Don´t forget the bassoon part on third slow movement. Cheers, Fernando |
| John Boyer 12/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: Don't expect me to come up with a pithy witticism at the expense of Tchaikovsky. The greatest 19th Century symphonist after Beethoven is certainly a ridiculous assessment, but he is one of the greats...certainly the greatest 19th Century symphonist from his country, and (take cover, kids) greater than any composer from Switzerland! You see, this thread has led to what I was afraid of...too many confessions of the "great composers I can't stand" type. How must poor Fernando feel when he reads that most of us feel his beloved Bruckner...well, sucks, to put it mildly. Jack comes along to Bruckner's defense but at the expense of Sibelius, sparing only the first two symphonies...which also happen to be the two I like the least! (For me, old Jan didn't hit his symphonic stride until #3). When will it end, my friends? I've already put our over-productive Swiss cheese friend in his place because someone threatened my beloved Tchaikovsky. At this rate, soon people will be taking swipes at (dare I say it?)...Brahms! Yes, soon people will make snide remarks about Brahms! ...And that will really be the end of everything! :) |
| Jamie 12/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: It was Tchaikovsky who called Brahms a "giftless bastard". Which reminds me, put me down in the anti-Sibelius camp. The only pieces of his I really like are Tapiola and the middle movement of the Karelia Suite. |
| John Boyer 13/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: So the Brahms bashing has begun already, albeit retroactively by some 125 years! Actually, after Tchaikovsky met Brahms he tamed his opinion to more civil levels. They liked each other personally. But he never "got" Brahms. He complained that Von Bulow told him that with time he would appreciate Brahms too, but that revelation never happened. And as far as is known, Brahms never appreciated Tchaikovsky either. Too bad. I like 'em both. And I like Raff, gosh darn it! So here's to our Swiss guy! May his day come again. |
| Jonathan 14/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: May I backtrack slightly on this thread - back to Hans Huber? I believe that one of Liszt's Trois Morceaux Suisses (originally published as part of Album d'un Voyager) is a transcription of a piece by Huber. It's very good - wonder if it was originally part of any of the symphonies you've mentioned. I'll have to check! For the record, I like Brucker (and we heard the 7th Symphony at the Proms 2 years ago - Amazing). I also like Tchaikovsky, Berwald and Brahms! My Girlfriend is a Sibelius nut (I haven't had much of a chance to get to know the symphonies, yet). She also likes Raff's 5th - Lenore best of the 11 he wrote. I don't know the Gade at all, he is on my list of people to investigate, along with Schmitt, Goetz and (now) Huber. So much music to investigate and not enough time! It would be ok if I didn't have to work. Then again if I didn't there would be no money for CDs! Best regards, Jonathan |
| Mark 17/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: Thanks, Jonathan, for prompting ten minutes "displacement activity" so that I could put off putting up the Christmas decorations... I've been doing a bit of detective work in Groves and it seems that there were two Swiss composers called Huber. Hans Huber (1852-1921) about whom we have been writing and Ferdinand Huber (1791-1863). Liszt's Album d'un Voyager was written in 1835-6 and published in 1842. Groves records that Nos.10 and 12 are indeed based upon compositions of Ferdinand, rather than Hans, who would have been VERY precocious to be composing in the 1830s! Ferdinand was mainly a teacher, but he did compose songs and piano pieces and was also the first to tune alphorns. Today's snippet of musical trivia, I think. Grove doesn't record any family relationship with the later Hans. Cheers, |
| Eric Schissel 20/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: And also the modern Klaus Huber, born in Bern in 1924. I've heard some music by Hans Huber but not much- just an organ work, a piano quartet, and most of the 3rd and 6th symphonies when they were on Dutch radio a few weeks ago. Also possibly the cello sonata that's on a CD with music by Juon and others. Was positively impressed by them, though. The vocal entry in the finale of the third(?) was a good surprise and well-done. The 5th symphony doesn't seem to have inspired a positive review anywhere that I can find. I wonder how the piano concerti Sterling is now releasing are. He seems to have written a prodigious amount of chamber music, almost none of which has reached recording- that first piano quartet (of two) on LP, the fourth cello sonata on CD, anything else? |
| Mark 24/12/2003 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: Yes, Klaus Huber too - I'd forgotten about him. I heard an a capella Te Deum Laudamus of his in a concert in 1999. "Mildly discordant" was the only phrase that I wrote down (I was reviewing a set of Raff pieces in the same concert). Obviously he and it made a great impression on me as I'd quite forgotten both work and composer until you reminded me, Eric... Closer inspection of Groves reveals that there was also a Swiss music editor, Christian Huber (d. 1697), a Swiss pianist Anna Huber (1894-1971) and a Swiss/German musicologist Kurt Huber (1893-1943) together with the German composer Nicolaus Huber (b.1939). Perhaps Huber is a common Swiss or German name? So many apparantly unrelated musicians is quite a coincidence otherwise! Groves even lists a reference to the Hungarian violinist/composer Hubay under Huber, Jenõ! Enough with the Huber, say I! Happy Christmas... |
| FERNANDO OLIVA 02/1/2004 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: Dear Friends: Answering Jamie´s message from last 12/12, I would add I am not much a Sibelius lover, but for me, his Violin Concerto is one of the best I ever listened. Cheers, Fernando. |
| Peter Conole 06/3/2004 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: This thread has been really enjoyable to read. Not much to add, except that two of Hans Huber's piano concertos have just been released. Have not made up my mind about them. They do lack the panache of the master (Raff). Huber's symphonies are a mixed bag, but anything from the monstrously neglected masters of the 19th century classical-romantic tradition is a bonus. A few comments (ie, my personal views) on some other issues raised; Bruckner - boring and overrated. Same with Mahler. Those gentlemen lacked restraint. Schmidt - the 1st symphony really is huge fun, largely because of its fairly conservative form. The first movement is like a 19th century teenage romp - innocent and an example of the composer 'showing off'. That is, he is saying, "look, I can do it too'. The 4th movement has a really well thought-out chorale. I fear most of the rest of his music lacks that kind of exuberance. Johann Svendsen - Anyone got his violin concerto? Wow! Again, youth carries the day. It is a glorious piece, one for my top ten list. There are two recordings of it. His cello concerto has still not appeared. |
| Mark 07/3/2004 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: I'm not getting sucked back into the dying embers of this hugely enjoyable composer-bashing spat-ette. But I will say that, to my surprise, I did rather enjoy Huber's two Piano Concertos. They're on a modest scale, they have melodies which one can remember for at least a few minutes after one has heard them and they're unconventional in a safe sort of way. The sleeve notes, IIRC, emphasise that they were written for individuals and were more of the nature of "private" compositions. Perhaps that's why he's more successful here than in the more portentous symphonies... |
| peter conole 07/3/2004 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: Mark, no composer bashing intended. That is, except for Wagner, his worst accolytes, the 2nd Viennese schools, all of their accolytes and about 90% of music written (and hopefully dead and buried) in the vile 20th century. I guess that makes my views a bit wimpish and moderate, but one does one's best to be a little bit liberal. By the way, I wish people would leave Brahms the Great alone. Have given Huber's 1st and 3rd piano concertos a second and third hearing. I have to agree with you. Number 3's opening movement, passacaglia a very nice idea, takes the listener to happy land. No point in detailed analysis of the whole concerto. We are such stuff as musical dreams are made of. I really liked the gentle charm of No.1 as well. And the fireworks of the last movement. Huber knows how to use the wind section - very discrete and effective throughout both works. Sterling CDS -1056-2. Yes, a fine summer investment. Will be wrathful if Huber's 2nd and 4th piano concertos do not appear this year. Come to think of it, where are Klengel's (CPO) and Davidov's (Olympia) remaining cello concertos? Any rumours about those works ? And what about Raff's meeting with Tudor re his own cello concertos? I know summer is starting in Europe and North America, but that is no excuse to stop lobbying. |
| Jack Kelso 08/3/2004 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: Isn't it funny, but the last folks I would expect in a forum on Raff would be the Brahmsians, who often, unfortunately, see their man as a safe refuge in the search of perfection and capable of doing no wrong (from technical aspects)...and dislike Berwald, Bruckner, Wagner, etc. but seem to have an affinity for appreciating Sibelius. But Brahms' music, which I know well, can be uneven in ideas, although brilliant in technique---a sort of academic Schumann. What I find refreshing about Raff is that his compositions are not pumped up too much, there's not this constant and conscious "striving" for greatness that I encounter occasionally in Brahms (but not so much in the symphonies). Brahms tends to be lionized too much by his admirers, perhaps still as a reaction to Wagnerians. Much of Brahms' best music is quite light in nature, so it's a shame that parts of his most popular works are marred by over-extension of form (once again, not in the symphonies, more in the concerti). Well, they all had their foibles and failings, so in the end---it's the spirit of the music that counts most. Jack |
| peter conole 08/3/2004 |
RE: Hans Huber and Joachim Raff IP: Logged Message: Could not agree more with Jack's general sentiments. The perfect composer has never lived and half the fun of plunging into the 19th century musical ocean is the way one's own personal preferences gradually emerge and sometimes change. I would not classify myself as a Brahmsian in one sense: the competition for best all-round composer of the era is too hot. The jury is still out. But I guess there is no need to talk in terms of competitions and juries. Discovery is the thing - and the CD revolution means that more and more forgotten gems of the classical romantic tradition will continue to appear. When listening to certain works by Brahms I sometimes think he is trying too hard. The Beethoven mantle had been thrown across his shoulders - a heavy burden. Mind you, I think he was a very great composer. So was Raff. I have heard it seriously argued (among musically minded mates) that Raff will be 'as big as Beethoven' in a couple of generations. A nice thought, even if a little 'pie in the sky'. For one thing, the standard concert fare would expand hugely. For another, it might embolden the more nervous major CD producers to broaden their horizons and give a few score more Beethoven/Brahms/Raff contemporaries a thorough work-out at the musical gym. |
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