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FERNANDO OLIVA   08/3/2004	Subject: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY Message: Dear Peter, I am glad to know another "Rafficionado " and Neglected Composer´s keen. I appreciate so much your thoughs and experts opinions. I am happy to hear that we will have new releases of Rubinstein music during this year. I would like to request your expert opinions about: - Arnold Bax ( I also appreciate your opinion about "Titangel") - George W. Chadwick - These Rubinstein works: Symphony nr. 3 and "Eroica" Fantasy. I discovered the Classical Music when I was 14 years old (now, I´m 40), and I recognize that the Raff discover three years ago has changed my tastes and view points. I only disagree with you about Bruckner. I apologize for my bad english. Thanks in advance for your opinions. I get the opportunity to greet to all this Forum friends (John, Mark, Jack, Jamie, Luis, etc.) and give everybody many thanks! Kind regards from Spain! Fernando.
peter conole   08/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Hello, Fernando. I do not think you need to worry about your English. If you want to hear very bad English, you should listen to some of my friends when they are arguing about football or politics - or even music. It is wonderful to meet people who like Raff and other unfairly forgotten composers. There was a time when I thought my musical tastes were strange. One friend even told me I seemed to have a passion for second rate composers. That was funny, because he likes some modernist composers I hate (Bartok, Martinu, Frank Martin and others). Also, I do not think the composers that get discussed on this forum are second rate. On the things you mentioned: Bax and 'Tintagel' - I love that piece, so expressive and cleverly orchestrated. I heard it on the radio once when I was a student and it was an early purchase when there was enough money to start getting CDs. I must confess that, although I listened to a lot of his music a few years ago, Bax is not a favourite composer of mine. But he did write one symphony that moved me - the sixth. It has this brooding, throbbing introduction and the ending is a really passionate, wistful one. George Chadwick - have listened to his 2nd and 3rd symphonies and some other orchestral pieces. The symphonies are good - very melodic, fast moving, some fun ideas. In the 2nd a lot is going on - he really puts the orcestra to work. I could not hear anything in them that would mark Chadwick out as an American, but I guess that would not have bothered him. Rubinstein's symphony No.3. That one is well orchestated and there are enough nice tunes (a couple of Russian folk melodies as well, if I remember correctly) to keep the listener interested. The last movement is the best, I think - dignified and strong. The Eroica Fantasia impressed me when I heard it first, but I thought it was too long. The parts that appealed most were some wonderfully pompous sections with march-like themes. In another thread I remember saying that I am a big fan of his piano concertos. Have you heard many of them? The 5th concerto is glorious - again, very long, but in this case I do not mind at all! Felt sorry for the pianist though, because Rubinstein seems to have thrown in every virtuoso trick he could think of. You mentioned the composer Felipe Pedrell in one thread. I checked out some reference works - he was a great musicologist and Spain's leading composer of the time. Yet I have not heard one note of his music. There is no indication he wrote any symphonies or concertos. The earliest romantic Spanish concerto I have come across is the one for piano by Isaac Albeniz. There must surely have been earlier ones. Can you or anyone else enlighten me? One final thought - I nearly threw a fit when I first heard Raff's 2nd violin concerto. One of the best of all time, surely. I was wondering if it has been played at any concerts in Europe or America. What did you think of that concerto? regards Peter
FERNANDO OLIVA   09/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Dear Peter: It´s always a great pleasure to can speak about Classical Music with other keens. I think that the very passional conversations are not about politicals or foot-ball (soccer). The Classical Music debates has often fire and passion. Last month, an specialized salesman of a best known music shop from Barcelona was angry with me because I said him "I prefer Glazunov than Stravinsky, to me Glazunov is a great Composer and the Stravinsky´s music sounds to me as snob, false and dull". He answered me: "Fernando, you are a conservative, you really are a musical tory". I am afraid that much snob intelectual people self-qualified as moderns and progressist has hostility towards the romantic music and the romantic composers in general. They prefer the bored early renacentist and ancient music, the "sleeping" baroque masters or the modern and undestandable composers. I am sure that the keens and professional musicians prefer to listen to really good music for orchestra or well crafted chamber music. I would like give you many thanks for yorr expert opinions. I entirely agree with you except about Martinú. I enjoyed listening to his Symphonies, specially the 2nd. and the 4th. Talking about other XXth. Century modern Composers, I also like Vaughan-Williams, Arnold Bax, Eric W. Korngold and some Bartok´s pieces. The music of Schonberg, Berg, Hindemith, Messiaen, Boulez and other atonal or serial composers dislikes me. I wondered listening to all the Rubinstein Piano Concertos, specially the 4th. I include this concerto among my ever favorites: Grieg in A minor, Liszt 1 & 2, Tchaikovsky 2nd,.Brahms 2nd. and Scumann in A minor. I also love specially the Rubinstein Piano Concertos 1 & 2, unjustifiedly neglected. Both are wrote following the Chopinian Style. I don´t have listened still the Raff Violin Concertos. I like all the Raff music, and I am sure they are very good. Talking about our guy, I would like to request you about your Raff favorite Symphonies. I like specially the 2nd., 3rd. "In the Forest", 4th. and 5th. "Lenore". Please, I give you thanks in advance for your expert opinion on Glazunov. Do you know his 8th. Symphony? Do you like "The Forest"? I´m afraid that I can´t help you about Spanish Composers. Although I am Spanish I don´t like much the music of the Spanish composers as Granados, Albeniz or Falla. Perhaps my musical nationality is... German/Russian. Kind regards from "Raffcelona" Cheers, Fernando.
peter conole   09/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Dear Fernando You are right about fire and passion when people discuss music. And, by god, I sure know what you mean about musical snobbery from the so-called modernists and 'progressives'. I told you about my lawyer friend who despised me for liking and caring about the wonderful romantic composers of the 19th. There was another former friend, a radio programme manager, who has a huge collection of ultra-modern music (including a lot of atonal stuff, 12 tone etc - you know the kind I mean) and called me a 'reactionary' and 'a musical caveman' because I collected 19th century piano and violin concertos. You are right about the snobbery and arrogance of such people. The trouble is, some of them are in positions of power and some even teach music at universities. One CD shop owner told me years ago that only music students bought CDs of Schoenberg, Berg, Boulez and others - the reason being that their teachers were pressuring them into studying their work. Ordinary music lovers never bought that music. You are also right about the way such people go on about early music and the 'sleeping' baroque masters. What unrecorded masters are left from the baroque? I suspect more of them have been recorded than from the 19th century. Yes, and what about the 'sleeping' romantic masters? There are thousands of them. I suspect the so-called 'progressives' are really very elitist and want to keep music within narrow boundaries. Composers like Glazunov, Raff, Grieg, Tchaikovsky are easy for anyone to love and admire - and if they became very popular again it might make the elite feel threatened. Was very glad you mentioned Glazunov. Yet another great master. At least he has not been swept away and ignored. I have all of his symphonies. My favourites are the 4th and 5th. However, I think the 8th is his most powerful. Very complex and several different changes of mood. It takes some getting used to. It has been several years since I have played 'The Forest', so I won't tell you what I think until I listen to it again. Your question about favourite Raff symphonies is a hard one to answer. I like all of his work. But I suppose it is necessary to admit the ones that make me feel best are the 3rd and 5th. They were also on your list of favourites. And thank you for raising the subject of Rubinstein's piano concertos again! I had forgotten number 4 when discussing Rubinstein in another thread. The best thing about it is that all of his piano concertos are clever, beautiful works. I suppose we should not be surprised - some music writers might claim he was the best pianist of the 19th century. And double thank you for telling me about your other favourite conccertos. This is a lot of fun. I have quite a few favorites and these are some: (1)Schumann - also on your list (2)Grieg - also on your list (3)Tchaikovsky no.2 - also on your list (that is interesting; both of us picked the 2nd rather than the 1st, which seems to be more widely known) (4)Brahms no.2 - also on your list (5)Rubinstein 4 or 5 - I would probably have to toss a coin to decide between them (6)Alexis de Castillon (7)Parry (8)Raff - our Swiss master. A great concerto (9)Saint Saens No.4 (10)Stenhammar no.1 This is not in the order I prefer them, just the way my thoughts came out. There are a lot more I could add. best regards from Peter
jkelso@ed.umuc.edu 10/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Hi, Fernando and Peter et al--- Some years ago, I heard a symphonic poem by a Spanish composer....it was called "Don Quixote" and was written in late-Romantic style. I never heard it again. Who could it have been?! Another unappreciated Romantic, not yet mentioned, was Goldmark. His beautiful Violin Concerto gets a hearing once in a while, but too rarely. Do you know that one? Also, his Second Symphony....with the marvelous trumpet solo in the trio of the scherzo. In Budapest I was able to buy a CD filled with unknown overtures by Goldmark. His operas "Merlin" and "The Queen of Sheeba" are also no longer in the active repertoire---why, I don't know. I read once (trivia!) that the three most popular symphonic works c.a. 1905 were Rubinstein's Second Sym. ("Ocean"), Volkmann's First in D Minor (love that one!) and Goldmark's "Rustic Wedding Symphony" (although more a "suite"). Exactly WHERE they were popular the writer didn't say. Also, how about Johan Svendsen? His two symphonies are up there with mature Dvorak, tho' on a somewhat smaller scale. Currently, I prefer him to Grieg, who--for me-- is just "too cute" sometimes. The two contemporaries admired each other; Svendsen felt Grieg's harmonic/melodic language was more original....and Grieg felt his friend's grasp of larger forms and orchestration was superior to his. Well, well---mutual modesty! Jack
FERNANDO OLIVA   10/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Dear Peter, Jack and friends: First, I apologize for wrote wrong the Peter´s surname. I know it´s CONOLE. I am so glad to can speak about our loved unjustified neglected composers, again. I forgot to include to the Piano Concerto´s list both Scharwenka´s Piano Concertos 2& 3. I don ´t know the Alexis de Castillon, Parry and Stenhammer Piano Concertos. I give you thanks in advance if you would like to explain more about these composers and their works. I think that Jack is beside me the other Brucknerian among the Forum members. I notice to him that I discovered the Franz Schmidt 4th. Symphony and I liked it very much, perhaps because it´s so brucknerian. I also agree with Jack about the Svendsen Symphonies (from Apex/Warner Music), both nice, delightful and so scandinavian nationalist. I also discovered the last fall/autumn the Niels W. Gade (Symphonies 1& 8 from Bis records) and enjoyed very much specially the 1st. so mendelssohnian Symphony. I am sorry, I don´t know who was the "Quixote´s " spanish later romantic composer. I am so curious about this question. Yesterday evening I enjoyed listening to the Rubinstein´s Quixote (from the MDG recording). It´s my second Rubinstein favorite tone poem. My ever favorite is the "Eroica" Fantasy. The "Ivan the Terrible" sounds dull beside the Eoica and Quixote. I get the opportunity to request your expert opinion about the Tchaikovsky´s suites. I never heard them. Are there so good in the same line of his Symphonies? I observed there are some new releases on Vieuxtemps Violin and Cello Concertos (from Naxos, Apex and EMI). Is it possible that the Belgian Composer may be in fashion again? Thanks in advance. Kind regards from "Raffcelona", Fernando.
peter conole   10/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Jack, Fernando and company Thanks for the exciting responses. You can imagine my pleasure when several other glories of the 19th century musical heaven get summoned up so quickly. Fernando brings up Glazunov and the violin demi-god Vieuxtemps. Jack pushes two more buttons on my 'adored composer' database file - Goldmark (five words: violin concerto.Milstein. adagio. yes?) and Svendsen. I am sorry to say I lost most of my response in a computer disaster about twenty minutes ago. Was in the middle of rounding it off with some issues and questions about Edouard Lalo and Friedrich Gernsheim. Will get to work tomorrow time and redraft it. Not happy. It is a good computer and usually very reliable. regards Peter
Jack Kelso 10/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Yes, Fernando...I know the Third Suite of Tschaikowsky---it's marvelously light, melodic and enchanting. I'd put it on a level with his Serenade for Strings. We shouldn't let the "snobs" get us down by calling us "reactionary, Peter. We're just attempting to undue a wrong that's been done by posterity to many great musical works of masters who might not have been as lucky as ones better known today. True, some of them composed no further than the public taste of their times, but if they don't get a hearing today---how can we judge them? And you're right about (most of) those 12-tone composers....they just want to throw a bunch of notes together, call themselves "artists" and hide behind the fact that no one has any inkling what it is they're trying to convey! That is why this forum is so important. The "good" moderns---for me---Copland, Hindemith, Schostakowitsch, Britten, Prokofiev, some Stravinsky, etc. were VERY critical of the atonal 12-tone stuff. Here in Germany they bring a lot of 12-tone "new talent" on the classical radio programs---and spend more time analyzing it for the public that the piece takes to be performed!! Now, doesn't that tell us something? Jack
FERNANDO OLIVA   11/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Dear Friends: I am sad and worried. We have suffered in Spain a hugue terrorist act today in the early morning. The terrorist bombed a train in Madrid and placed more bombs in some train stations. There are 200 dead victims for now and almost 600 injuried people. Many thanks for the information on Tchaikovsky 3rd. Suite. Perhaps the Serenade for Strings is not among my Tchaikovsky´s works. I like very much his 5th. Symphony (more than the famous "Pathetic"), "The Tempest", the 2nd. Piano Concerto, the Violin Concerto and the "Variations on a Rococó Theme". I also do distinction between modern composers and bad modern composers. I think that Martinú, Bartok, Vaughan Williams, Bliss, Bax, Korngold, Janacek. Prokofiev, Shostakovitch or Kodaly are examples of attractive music written in modern idiom. I include Strauss, Sibelius, Mahler, Nielsen, Elgar, Glière, Rachmaninov and Glazunov among the composers into the romantic 19th. Century tradition although some of them have modern strokebrushes. I dislike Schomberg, Berg, Boulez, Messiaen, Montsalvatge, de Pablos and others who wrote understandable music. I am sorry, I never liked Stravinsky. I confess I never heared anything from Hindemith. I like some Debussy and Ravel works although the Impressive French School often leaves me cold. About Goldmark, I agree with Jack. Goldamark is a good composer. I like very much his 1st. Violin Concerto. I also listened to his Rustic Wedding Symphony. It´s good but so far to the originality of other own contemporary composers. The "Spring" and "In Italy" are not much original. A detail: I am listening to now the Bartok´s "Concerto for Orchestra", and I have detected a burlesque parody on the Léhars "Merry Widow March" from the middle section of the 2nd. movement "Gioco della Copia". Do you agree with me? Thanks in advance for your thoughs and expert opinions. I wonder your high level on Musical Culture! Kind regards from Spain. Today is a sad day in my country! Fernando.
Mark   11/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Fernado, forgetting about music for a few moments, I'm sure that the thoughts of every one of us who frequent this forum are with you and your fellow countrymen today. It is an appalling outrage. At times like these I have found that a love of music can provide solace, and I do hope that is true for you too. Best wishes on behalf of us all...
peter conole   11/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Hello Jack, Fernando and company I suspect my computer is still giving me problems. First I will pass on something that is not very important at this very bad time. I sent it last night, but the message has not appeared. Probably my computer. Jack, the composer Oscar Espla (1886-1976) put together a symphonic poem called 'La vela de armas de Don Quixote' in 1924. That might be the 'Don Quixote' you mentioned. Also, Tomas Breton (1850-1923) wrote a violin concerto sometime before Albeniz composed his 1887 piano concerto. That answers my question about Spanish romantic concertos. About Goldmark. Yes, his violin concerto (especially the Milstein version) is one of my all-time favourites. The Rustic Wedding Symphony is innocent, tuneful, deliberately quaint - very appealing work. His second symphony is wonderful. He wrote a second violin concerto; for all we know as good as the first. Of course, all of the major CD producers are mad with desire to record all of Goldmark's work so we see this other ship in Raff's fleet in all of his glory. No chance of that, I fear. Thank you, Fernando, for mentioning Vieuxtemps. I passed on some views and information about him in my lost response. But this is not the right moment to talk about such things. Fernando, the news about the terrorist crimes in Spain was on the news when I arrived home. There have been several additional reports since and I know the newspapers will be saying a lot tomorrow. There is nothing I can say about such a monstrous tragedy that will make you feel any better. I offer you my most sincere sympathy and I pray that nobody you know was killed or hurt. That is the first thought that goes through a person's head when such a terrible thing happens. I know how it feels because of the bombing in Bali not so long ago. The city I live in is quite small and everyone seems to know everyone else. Many of the victims were from my city -sure enough, a lady in the organisation I work for lost two of her daughters. This is a very sad time for you and your dear country. Again, my deepest sympathy. Reading the newspapers tomorrow will be awful. May your family and friends be safe. regards peter
John Boyer   11/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Unfortunately, Milstein's Goldmark cuts the last movement candenza in half. There is a gorgeous section where the orchestra begins to accompany while the violin plays light arpeggios, similar to the beginning of the recapitulation in the 1st movement of the Mendelssohn, but Milstein drops the entire section.
Jack Kelso   12/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Fernando, my sympathies go out to you and the people of Spain as well. What is becoming of this world? As Mark said, music can be for many a solace...and I hope it is for you. Let us pray that this terrorist menace will soon be stamped out for good. Thank you, Peter, for the info on Espla. I don't recall the name, but I'll definitely look into his works, because that tone poem was VERY impressive. If Milstein played the Goldmark (back when!) then he must have liked it, so if he made cuts it would seem to me that he was forced to (record companies back then were really tough on works of "no name" composers). Fernando, there are two versions of Goldmark's "Im Fruehling" (Spring) Overture; the one has a roughly 15-measure cut in the coda. The material cut is--for its time--quite dissonant, pointing toward the Richard Strauss of "Til Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche". I have both versions...and I like both(?!). "Cutting" passages no longer seems in vogue, morally or artistically. However, IMO there are a couple of Raff symphonic movements that could profit from "sprucing". Also, Rubinstein's Sixth Symphony, which has wonderful moments, could use it. Some enterprising conductor, with good artistic taste, might be able to bring some of these lesser-known symphonies to a larger audience by making a few tasteful revisions...without jeopardizing the composers' original intentions. Jack
FERNANDO OLIVA   12/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Dear Friends: I would like to give many thanks to all Forum Friends to sympathize with the Spanish people. It´s a mourning day although I am sure that the freedom and the peace finally will win the terror and the violence. Yesterday night, I tried to find a music that depicts my feelings. I thought in the Vaughan-Williams 6th. Symphony last movement. I would be grateful if somebody brings me extense information on the Stenhammer, Parry and Alexis de Castillo Piano Concertos. I am so curious about them. Are there any avaiable recording? Have a nice week-end. Thanks for all! All the best, Fernando.
Mark   12/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: I have a copy of the Castillon Piano Concerto played by Ciccolini accompanied by Prêtre and the Monte Carlo Philharmonic Orch. It's not a profound work, but a very enjoyable one - think, perhaps of a French equivalent of the Bronsart or Scharwenka works. It reminds me very much of some of the Saint-Saëns concerti - Nos.2-4 in particular, but whether that's just an association of ideas because the composer is also French, I don't know. I don't think that the CD is available any more. If you can't find it then let me know and I'll put a "review" copy in the mail. The Parry Concerto I find a rather solid and earnest work, as were many of his compositions. More enjoyable, for me at least, is the Stanford No.1 with which it is coupled on the Hyperion CD. But then I'm a big Stanford fan!
peter.conole   13/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Raff Forum friends Only a quick response for now. I want to be sure my computer is working. John and Jack, thanks for helping me out re some technicalities with the Goldmark concerto - I knew something was slightly amiss by comparing Milsteins version with those of Perlman and Tsu. Still prefer Milstein.Can anyone recommend another A-class version? Thanks for beating the Castillon and Parry drums, Mark. Castillon's concerto (composed about 1871) is lush and VERY romantic. The poor composer died at the young age of 35. Agree with you about the Parry concerto on Hyperion. Not about Stanford though - I prefer his second piano concerto and the violin concerto. Was he not a master musician! Also Parry. Fernando, the Wilhelm Stenhammar concerto no.1 is on Chandos (Chan 9074). The final sections contain some of the most moving music I have ever heard. I do not know why is has such a personal impact. Will send this off now just in case. Do not feel like writing much anyway - the newspapers were horrendous. regards to all Peter
Mark   13/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: I think that you misunderstood me, Peter. I was only saying that I preferred Stanford's 1st. Piano Concerto to Parry's effort. Of course, the 2nd. Stanford piece is a marvel which quite eclipses the 1st. It out-Rachmaninovs Rachmaninov. The Violin Concerto is, if anything, even superior to that - a work of real stature. I think that I've written recently that his symphonies 4-6 are probably my favourite works by a British composer - Elgar not excluded. I'll be second to none in my admiration for Stanford, don't you worry! Cheers,
peter conole   14/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: No problems at all Mark. What I was really trying to say was that I actually marginally preferred Parry's piano concerto to Stanford's no.1. Mind you, loved both of them. And I agree 110% with your remarks about Stanford's concertos and symphonies. Was stunned after first hearing his piano concerto no.2 - saw stars and lights. Strange. About 10,000 versions of each of Rachmaninov's concertos and those of Stanford have only crashed through the brick wall of 20th century anti-romantic prejudice over the last 25 years. Have noticed references in your postings to some composers who are still only brief entries in music encyclopedias to me. You also write reviews... I only started collecting CDs a decade ago. You can imagine the buying frenzy when I worked out I wanted to live in the Grand Duchy of Raffmark. Used desparation measures and had to buy a lot of deleted stuff second hand. I think Castillon's concerto turned up that way. Can you tell me more about Bronsart - mentioned in one of your postings. Are you referring to the Vox reproduction of his piano concerto? Or is their another I do not know about? Several blokes have mentioned Johann Svendsen. Am very keen on his violin concerto and mentioned to get hold of the NKF CD and Danacord versions. I bet he was wooing a young lady when he wrote the concerto - maybe the future Mrs Svendsen, she of the burned symphony. Or maybe it was a product of his jaunt in Second Empire Paris. What are our chances of getting a major recording company to do a double of the violin and cello concertos with the best soloists around. Any lobbying power out there? Would like to seeks views and advice on maestro Vieuxtemps. I have noticed that a couple of people have mentioned him. He and Raff died within a year of one another. Was furious when in collecting mania - only one concerto (no.4) was in the catalogues at the time. Heifetz performed miracles in getting the brutally difficult scherzo right. No later performers, to my ears, seem to get it quite right. But the recording was a truncated version of the work. Now all of his concertos (7 for violin and two for cello) have been out on CD. So some victories have been won. The fun thing is that all the violin concertos are differently shaded: the teenage compositions are wild, with every orchestral and virtuoso trick he could think of thrown in. The middle ones are again pretty individual, with some more experimentation. The last two (composed in 1880 when Vieuxtemps was very ill) are more introspective and restrained, but still remarkable. In the 1930's a smart-alec modernist critic wrote this about Vieuxtemps - "In the concertos he tries to be grandiose: the form atrophies his critical sense and the result is simply monstrosity". What an outrage! How dared he say that. I am sure the swine never listened to the bulk of Vieuxtemp's works, let alone read them through. To paraphrase and expand on those comments (some words of Jack's were useful for this one) " Many modernist composers try to browbeat a sullen musical public by at-random throwing together of notes and grandiose explanations of what they are up to. Atonal forms and elitist hostility to the classical romantic tradition has atrophied their critacl sense and the result is simply monstrosity". Regards to all Peter
Mark   14/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Hans Bronsart von Schellendorf (1830-1913): No, unfortunately the only commercial recording of which I am aware is the old Vox Piano Concerto with Ponti blasting away hell for leather. I do have an old recording (provenance unknown) of his early Piano Trio which is a very engaging, if slight, piece. There is another Piano Concerto (No.2 op.18 in B flat), two Symphonies (both lost apparently) and a Spring Fantasy for orchestra, not to mention many piano pieces. He was yet another of the Liszt ménagerie and became a piano virtuoso and musical administrator in Hanover and later Weimar. His wife (also a piano virtuoso) wrote operas, piano concertos and piano sonatas. Going back to Stanford, Peter, have you "discovered" Sterling's recent CD of Frederik Cliffe's 1st. Symphony? He was an Englishman of Stanford's generation and his symphony is a hugely enjoyablble romp à la Stanford. Sounds like him, actually. Apropos of nothing much, I've just learned that Chandos are going to bring out in May the 1841 Symphony of dutchman Johannes Verhulst (1816-1891), whom Schumann praises consistently in his writings. It's coupled with three of his overtures. Should be worth a punt. Cheers,
peter conole   14/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: I hope and assume you mean the Verhulst E Minor symphony, op 46 (1841). I only have a slightly worn second hand CD of it. The Frederick Cliffe Symphony no.1 is news to me. Sorry to be a pain, but could you give me the Sterling number? My home town still only gets the 'trickle down' effect in terms of musical events. Re the Raff cello concertos. Half the fun will be comparing his with other works of the era. Pablo Casals recorded the cantilena from the Georg Goltermann A minor concerto. Was the entire work ever been recorded? Can anyone enlighten me? regards peter
peter conole   14/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: I hope and assume you mean the Verhulst E Minor symphony, op 46 (1841). I only have a slightly worn second hand CD of it. The Frederick Cliffe Symphony no.1 is news to me. Sorry to be a pain, but could you give me the Sterling number? My home town still only gets the 'trickle down' effect in terms of musical events. Re the Raff cello concertos. Half the fun will be comparing his with other works of the era. Pablo Casals recorded the cantilena from the Georg Goltermann A minor concerto. Was the entire work ever been recorded? Can anyone enlighten me? regards peter
Mark   14/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: I assume that it's one and the same. He wrote only one according to Groves. It's coupled, BTW, with three of his overtures. The Frederick Cliffe is coupled with his Orchestral Picture: "Cloud & Sunshine" on Sterling CDS 1055. I've emailed Bo Hyttner pleading for the 2nd. Symphony and the Violin Concerto - the more of us who do that, the better! Is Goltermann a deserving addition to the ranks of the "unjustly unknown"! I see that he wrote a Symphony (1851), three Overtures and no less than eight Cello Concertos! I find, to my shamefaced surprise, that I have his Deux Morceaux de Salon for Cello Quartet hiding away on a delightful CD of such trifles for multiple cellos. I suppose I'd better play it now, just to satisfy my curiousity. Thanks, Peter...
peter conole   15/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Thanks for that Mark. The Verhulst and Cliffe works are both on the buy ASAP list. And I will sob on the shoulders of the Sterling bosses via email. The label has done great things for the 'undeservedly neglected' masters. Just one problem. Have they properly kick-started a 'Norwegian romantics' series? The last war between Sweden and Norway was in 1814, so there should be no 'old grudge' issues (joking). Have several works on my Norse 'want' list. Re Golterman. Have a funny feeling we are missing out on quite a lot. The cantilena is rather nice. I think it is from his 4th cello concerto which, if my memory for vague written asides is correct, seems to have been staple food for cellists up to 100 years ago. And that brings me to Friedrich Gernsheim. He scores goals with each of his symphonies. He also wrote at least one concerto each for piano and violin. They would be a great 'pairing' for CPO, Chandos, MDG, etc, etc. The violin concerto op.42 is very Brahmsian and athletic from what I can make out; melodic cantilena in the andante and three themes in different keys tied together in the last movement. Any recordings known? Could a few thousand people lean on some CD company for a new one? regards Peter
Mark   17/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Gernsheim also wrote a Cello Concerto - I have an old radio dub of it. Very much in the conservative romantic idiom of his symphonies (and none the worse for that), it is a short piece of about 15 minutes cast in one movement. It's shame that the four symphony set of a couple of years ago didn't provoke more releases...
peter conole   17/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Mark, thanks for the reminder about the cello concerto. I believe Gernsheim wrote two violin concertos; the op42 was the one that got the nod from one writer. On the subject of cello works, in a music reference book the author dismisses Raff in 14 lines (Wagner gets 8 pages), but he does say the Cello Concerto in D was one of the composer's 'magnificent' works. Guess that means the Tudor versions of Raff's cello and orchestra works may prove to be the event of the season. Agree about hint that more Gernsheim releases would be nice - wonder if his home port(Worms) makes some fuss over him a la Wiesbaden and Raff. regards Peter
Mark   17/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: I was looking at an academic book the other day - a translation of a 1980s German text on "The symphony in Germany in the 19th. century". No mention of Raff at all - not even to denigrate or berate him. Amazing. Love or loathe his music, it surely deserved a mention amongst 400-odd pages. I don't think that would happen now, mind you. The Cello Concerto No.1 is, IMHO, one of his finest works for soloist and orchestra. It is structurally interesting, melodically both memorable and economical and, above all, it is concise. Oh, if only Raff had learned that less is often more! I'd put it at least on a par with Saint-Saëns' No.1. The 2nd. Concerto, as with Saint-Saëns' own, is more conventional and less interesting - though by no means a poor effort. I too am looking forward to Tudor's upcoming release. I don't know what reputation the soloist Daniel Müller-Schott has, but I do trust Hans Stadlmair and the Bamberg Orchestra to give a good account of themselves.
peter conole   17/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: That response made me sit up. I can imagine what will happen up to and when the Raff concertos begin their migrations. Raff devotees will be dusting off any cello concertos from the same era,working them over on the CD player and hoping the masters triumphs over them all. Should make for some lively discussions. Mind you, it will still boil down to the usual personal taste issue. Re treatment of Raff in general books - A.L.Bacharach's 'The Musical Companion' (1934) gives him 3 brief references in 751 pages. He damns him with faint praise and dismisses two symphonies as "facile and pleasantly attractive". And here is a good one to ponder - the 1955 edition of the 'The Oxford Companion to Music' says this in reference to the 'decline' of Raff: " in the 1883 edition, and even in the the 1908 edition, of Grove's Dictionary, the list of his works was eighteen inches long, whereas in the 1928 edition the list had shrunk to four inches". And in the 1980's German work you referred to he does not crack one mention. Our composer was a miracle worker - the Incredible Shrinking Raff. Enough pessimism - as you say, it would be hard to imagine such neglect now. regards peter
FERNANDO OLIVA   18/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Dear Friends, Greetings from Barcelona. I read this Forum chats daily, although this week I was so busy writing about fly-fishing and discovering the Aaron Copland´s music. I liked his 3rd. Symphony and his "Quiet City" very much. Yesterday I had a conversation with a Classical Music specialized saleswoman. She´s a young girl that plays from the JONC (Catalonian National Young Orchestra). I asked her about the new MDG releases. She was surprised to hear that an amateur keen as me knows a lot about neglected composers. Although she studies on the Conservatoire, she never has heard nothing from Rubinstein or Raff. I recommended her to listen to the Rubinstein 3rd. Symphony and the Scharwenka 2nd. and 3rd. Piano Concertos. I am afraid she gets a dangerous snob-intelectual infection in the Conservatoire: She likes the dull Furtwängler Symphonies! Dear Friends: What´s you expert opinion about the Fürtwangler Symphonies? I also would like to request your expert opinions about the Respighi´s Drammatic Symphony. I listened it last week and I don´t like it. I will have a re-assestment of this work during the next week. Thanks in advance, Cheers, Fernando.
peter conole   19/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Fernando, am also a Scharwenka fan. On him more later. One Furtwangler symphony were so boring and pretentious I sold my copy second hand within two weeks of listening to it. Agree also about Respighi's Dramatic Symphony. Not impressed, but will keep it. I have a soft spot for that composer because of his early piano concerto and the piano concerto in the Mixolodian mode. Have you heard them? The Mixolodian mode concerto is out of this world. It proves that composers writing in the 1900s (notice my total bias) could still produce masterpieces. regards, Peter
FERNANDO OLIVA   19/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Dear Peter, Tomorrow I would like to have a fly-fishing trip. I plan to listen to the Martinú Symphonies 2 & 4 and the Glazunov 8th. Symphony while I will drive from home to river. I am glad to hear that Peter is a Scharwenka fan. I only have listened to the Scharwenka Piano Concertos 2 & 3, and both sounds like superbs for me. I would like to have a Respighi´s Drammatic Symphony re-assestment next week. My first impression was negative. This Symphony sounds cold and dull. Its orchestration is well done, following the straussian style, but the themes are bored, pretentious and bombast. I know that Wilhelm Fürtwangler and Bruno Walter were the best Bruckner´s work conductors in their own time. They were among the survivors of the Romantic German tradition. The last conductor from these tradition in oposition to the literal Toscanini´s style was Otto Klemperer. I am getting the opportunity to request you (and to others Forum Members) about your expert opinion on: - Raff Piano Concerto in C minor. I like it so much, specially its slow movement, a wonderful and nice romantic piece, much similar in spirit to the slow movement of the 4th. Piano Trio. - Rubinstein 4th. "Drammatic" Symphony. However I like this work less than his 3rd. and 6th. I think it´s a good work, painted in dark colors although its so long scherzo (about 15´ larger) possedes much humour sense. Are you agree with me? - Saint-Saëns Piano Concertos 2 & 4. The 4th. Piano Concerto is wonderful, and it´s among the list of my Piano Concerto Favorites, beside famous and neglected works all good for me: Rubinstein 4th., Rachmaninov 3rd., Brahms 2nd., Liszt 1 & 2, Scharwenka 2 & 3, Tchaikovsky 2nd., etc. The 2nd. is also good, specially its first movement as a tribute to baroque clavichord. Have you and all Forum friends a nice week-end. Do somebody like the fly-fishing? I wonder be beside ther river fishing and listening to the Schubert "Trout" Quintet. All the best! Fernando.
peter conole   19/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Hi Fernando. I wish I could say we go fly fishing in a civilised way in your part of the Grand Duchy of Raffmark. But I live in the village of Neu Hicksburg, not at the capital, Gross Alpenhorn. Down here we strangle crocodiles for sport and bite sharks to death when in a bad mood. You have raised a lot of issues with your comments about some composers. I know we are discussing issues of personal taste, but here is what I think about the works you mentioned; (1) Respighi's Dramatic Symphony. I agree with you - dull and cold.But please listen to his Piano Concerto in the Mixolodian Mode. Wonderful. Would be interested in what other Raff -lovers think of that piece. (2) Raff's piano concerto in the grand style. Is there a better work dating from the 1870's? I doubt it. One of the most clever and demanding piano concertos of the 19th century, with a lot of emotional depth. Even the works of Tchaikovsky are challenged by that concerto. In regard to Tchaikovsky's piano concerto no.2 , you seemed to prefer that to no.1. Was it because of the performance of Victoria Postnikova? (Decca 436 485-2). (3) Saint Saens no.4. I agree with you . It was fun to listen to all of his piano concertos in one long sitting - but I would not never do that again. It spoils the sharp pleasure one gets (not sure this is the right term) from 'delayed gratification'. (4) You mentioned a few of your favourite romantic piano concertos again, as in in earlier posting. I responded earlier by listing a couple of my additional favourites (eg, Castillon and friends). OK, I give up. Now I confess. This should really be in a separate thread called 'Dirty little musical secrets'. I what like to recommend an outrageous, off-the-planet, shocking and disgraceful romantic piano concerto for you to listen to. The work is Henryck Melcer's piano concerto no.1 in E minor, composed in 1895. (Olympia Cd - Ocd 398). The concerto is one of the very few works that made me laugh with sheer pleasure and delight when I first heard it. For me, it will always remain a 'secret vice' (one of many) to indulge in when no else is looking. I wager that many other Raff people have similar musical secrets. Might be worth a new thread called 'Furtive musical plaesures'. What do you think, Mark? regards peter
Mark   20/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: This is already the longest thread on the Forum - a new one might just be appropriate. I'll let you press the buttons, Peter... Now to Melcer. I only "discovered" his 2nd. Piano Concerto a few months ago from a remastered 1952 recording. What a muscular, big-boned piece it is. A surprisingly individual voice, although he does lapse into Rachmaninovian sentimentality from time to time. As he was writing a few years ahead of the Russian, though, I'll forgive him that. Melodically, I'd have liked his ideas to have a little more staying power, but I'm carping really. It's a very nice work. And then, coincidentally, the BBC broadcast a 1970s recording of his 1st. Concerto yesterday morning (at 1 AM!). I can't say I've properly got to grips with it yet. First impressions are that the first movement wears its debt to Tchaikovsky rather obviously, but the slow movement is a little gem and the dancing finale a delight. A little internet sluething has produced the news that both will feature in a future Hyperion CD - soloist Jonathan Plowright. So that's alright, then. Mark
peter conole   21/3/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Mark, the 1st Melcer concerto was the one that had my jaw dropping and brought about the delighted laughter. I can hardly wait to hear his 2nd. You already have! But Hyperion is going to do the right thing and record both - I will feel all the more virtuous for it because of the 'delayed gratification' syndrome. As you suggested, will 'press a button' on a 'Furtive Musical Pleasures' thread in the near future once I summon up the nerve. Am pretty sure other visitors to the forum will come up with works yours truly has never heard, ones that will start readers off on another collection hunt. regards Peter
Eric   16/4/2004	Frederick Cliffe IP: Logged Message: The Sterling recording with Cliffe got good reviews from "the Grammophone". This music is actually very good. I was very surprised that a composer of this dignity is so unknown. Also, very fun to play!
peter conole   17/4/2004	RE: NICE TO MEET YOU, MR. CONOLY IP: Logged Message: Eric A nice co-incidence. I now know what you mean. The Cliffe symphony turned up this week with the Coleridge-Taylor violin concerto. The symphony was a delight. I think you would agree the Cliffe work proves a point! Never heard of him until Mark drew attention to the Sterling production. It reminded me of just how severe our 'musical deprivation' has been. There are scores of forgotten and unperformed 19th century composers I want to meet and enjoy, especially Germans. Mark, I will now really play 'follow the leader' and beg Sterling for the violin concerto and 2nd Symphony. Who knows, someone might listen. regards Peter